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Moderation discussion thread

First post First post
Author
Frying Doom
#321 - 2012-11-20 06:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Simple answer.
Because CCP decided it is.

Yes but why, they are a business reliant on payments by customers, they are not a government agency that you have no alternative other than to use.

Darek Castigatus wrote:
Speculative answers
Because depending on your API settings other people may be able to read your evemail and they prefer to keep 'official' (as in GM) communications secret.

Because they dont want the extra traffic on the eve mail system that such a change would inevitably lead to.

Because its adding a needless extra bit of work for someone dealing with a problem when they already have contact information for you and its not up to CCP to do extra work purely to make your life easier.

Actually yes it is, he/she is their customer and the whole nature of customer service is to meet or exceed your customers expectations, as well as to treat all of your customers with respect and courtesy even if they have shown you none. It is how you keep customers and grow a business. Not become threatening.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#322 - 2012-11-20 09:44:03 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Simple answer.
Because CCP decided it is.

Speculative answers
Because depending on your API settings other people may be able to read your evemail and they prefer to keep 'official' (as in GM) communications secret.

Because they dont want the extra traffic on the eve mail system that such a change would inevitably lead to.

Because its adding a needless extra bit of work for someone dealing with a problem when they already have contact information for you and its not up to CCP to do extra work purely to make your life easier.
Hi,

Thanks for posting. I'm going to quote you. I hope it is not dangerous for me to do so.

1) CCP can have any system they like and it's their call. That being said debating the merits of that system within the narrow, narrow boundaries of this thread, in a general & non-specific way and not attacking anyone in particular should not result in responses that are downright rude or what I would consider to be veiled threats.

If a CCP person wishes to respond to a specific post you would expect that they have an understanding of the context or an attempt at understanding the customer before giving them both barrels. It's not like anyone here is in a position to respond in the same way.

2) I can remove the speculation. GMs do send warnings in game via EVE Mail for out of game issues. So the 'official' position is they do.

3) Have you seen how many EVE mails get sent in this game? Try joining some of the 'Bulk Marketing' mailing lists. Hundreds of recipients with countless EVE mails daily and that is just one example.

The thought that the EVE mails generated by CCP in forum warnings could some how bring down the EVE mail system is a hypothesis with endless comedic opportunity but I will pass and just say it is an unlikely scenario.

4) To counter your point don't you feel a system that at least delivered the warning via the medium a forum member had just earned it on might some how avoid "WTF Banned?" "petitions" like some we see before us? Do you feel CCP's life would be made easier or more difficult without a near endless queue of customers being banned from the forum - from their perspective out of the blue?

If you go back and read the relevant posts on this even a concession that it perhaps be a workable idea and it could be raised on some EVE Gate ideas whiteboard might have been enough for a bit of kudos and and end to that issue. The response... well I've already commented on that and I remain astonished.

Which is really what I find the most baffling about this particular forum conversation is where the tone such a simple issue has been set by CCP. Frankly, it isn't the customers who are in the a position to be unsubtle in this thread.

To be frank I'm of the opinion that this approach has torpedoed the forum strategy that was laid down a few months ago. Wonderful, the forum has less character. People with a view that doesn't toe the party line are slammed as "trolling" or "ranting". Honestly, meh. It doesn't matter how all this looks on the front page of GD. It's simply this. Is this approach more expensive or less expensive that it was six months ago? More forum "petitions" or less than there were six months ago? That's the only measure of success and longevity of a community support function in a games company.

The next time CCP stuff something up (as they will) that's when you will be able to measure your community goodwill then we can see how this strategy is shaping up.

Overall though, I feel I can see the evidence of a massive amount of forum and "petition" issues being completely mismanaged here because frankly, I've seen all the forum and support issues.

After many years dealing with gaming communities the cultural and judgement issues I see on these forums and in in my opinion, the appalling "petition" process are obvious.

I could go into further details but that will be for another time and a discussion on how petitions work.

One thing though. You learn early on in community support is that if you regard every question, challenge or issue as a nail you have created yourself a serious hole to dig out of. If you already have perceived credibility issues (I refer as example to the numerous threads started by CCP on forum moderation in recent months) people really won't bother to care, respond to you or feel anything is fair when they expect only a hammer.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2012-11-20 11:05:47 UTC
Seriously dudes, stop making moderation posts in full dev-post mode.

thank you
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#324 - 2012-11-20 13:56:12 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually yes it is, he/she is their customer and the whole nature of customer service is to meet or exceed your customers expectations, as well as to treat all of your customers with respect and courtesy even if they have shown you none. It is how you keep customers and grow a business. Not become threatening.


Which would be true if we were talking about their product, which we arent unless you're seriously trying to argue an internet forum is an essential part of EvE Online.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Frying Doom
#325 - 2012-11-20 20:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually yes it is, he/she is their customer and the whole nature of customer service is to meet or exceed your customers expectations, as well as to treat all of your customers with respect and courtesy even if they have shown you none. It is how you keep customers and grow a business. Not become threatening.


Which would be true if we were talking about their product, which we arent unless you're seriously trying to argue an internet forum is an essential part of EvE Online.

No but the forums are the publicly accessible part of their customer service, where any one of their customers can see how they interact with other paying customers.

Customer service is not just about the product you sell, it is also about how you handle all relations with customers potential, new and existing. Given the fact that they have trouble obtaining new customers and retaining the old ones, you would think their customer service would be top notch, rather than being similar to what you find at a government department.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#326 - 2012-11-20 22:47:40 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually yes it is, he/she is their customer and the whole nature of customer service is to meet or exceed your customers expectations, as well as to treat all of your customers with respect and courtesy even if they have shown you none. It is how you keep customers and grow a business. Not become threatening.


Which would be true if we were talking about their product, which we arent unless you're seriously trying to argue an internet forum is an essential part of EvE Online.

No but the forums are the publicly accessible part of their customer service, where any one of their customers can see how they interact with other paying customers.

Customer service is not just about the product you sell, it is also about how you handle all relations with customers potential, new and existing. Given the fact that they have trouble obtaining new customers and retaining the old ones, you would think their customer service would be top notch, rather than being similar to what you find at a government department.


Hmm, I can see where you're coming from there and I partially agree with you but there are some points I want to make. Personally i think It isnt the moderation staffs job to stay on the good side of players just to make the company look good or to satisfy a players idea of how they should behave, its to keep order on the forums and give information when needed or requested and I believe the current staff have done that very well. I also believe they already tried playing nice and it just didnt work, witness how unpleasant some forum denizens used to be and in some cases still are, both to other users and staff members.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Frying Doom
#327 - 2012-11-21 02:52:31 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from there and I partially agree with you but there are some points I want to make. Personally i think It isnt the moderation staffs job to stay on the good side of players just to make the company look good or to satisfy a players idea of how they should behave, its to keep order on the forums and give information when needed or requested and I believe the current staff have done that very well.

It is the role of any staff member that interacts with paying customers role to be kind, courteous and considerate at all times. They should be helpful in any way possible and as to keeping order on the forums, yes it is a difficult task but one they should rise to meet not just pick the lowest common denominator and stay there.

Darek Castigatus wrote:
I also believe they already tried playing nice and it just didnt work, witness how unpleasant some forum denizens used to be and in some cases still are, both to other users and staff members.

If customers are unpleasant you should actually attempt to be more helpful and considerate, it is their job that they are being paid for, the customer is not getting paid to complain but they are paying for the privilege.

Now there is a certain line you must draw in the sand before action needs to be taken against a customer, threats of violence ect.. but even in these cases threats of any kind should NEVER be used in return.

The only businesses that use threats are Drug Cartels, the mafia and Prison guards. As CCP is none of these no threat should ever be made, if they customer has gone to far then yes ban him and give him a right of appeal via another department.

In most customer service businesses if a staff member threatens a customer at all they were dismissed instantly. As the old adage goes 'Give great customer service and your customer will tell a friend, give bad customer service and they will tell 20'
And the latest figures actually show that this adage is now more true in the united states with it actually increasing to 25 people.

The easiest way to think of it is staff get paid to put on a happy face, customers pay you not too.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#328 - 2012-11-21 07:46:43 UTC
Do devs or isd have a moderation quota?

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

CCP Falcon
#329 - 2012-11-21 09:21:58 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
Do devs or isd have a moderation quota?


Nope Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#330 - 2012-11-21 11:54:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from there and I partially agree with you but there are some points I want to make. Personally i think It isnt the moderation staffs job to stay on the good side of players just to make the company look good or to satisfy a players idea of how they should behave, its to keep order on the forums and give information when needed or requested and I believe the current staff have done that very well.

It is the role of any staff member that interacts with paying customers role to be kind, courteous and considerate at all times. They should be helpful in any way possible and as to keeping order on the forums, yes it is a difficult task but one they should rise to meet not just pick the lowest common denominator and stay there.

Darek Castigatus wrote:
I also believe they already tried playing nice and it just didnt work, witness how unpleasant some forum denizens used to be and in some cases still are, both to other users and staff members.

If customers are unpleasant you should actually attempt to be more helpful and considerate, it is their job that they are being paid for, the customer is not getting paid to complain but they are paying for the privilege.

Now there is a certain line you must draw in the sand before action needs to be taken against a customer, threats of violence ect.. but even in these cases threats of any kind should NEVER be used in return.

The only businesses that use threats are Drug Cartels, the mafia and Prison guards. As CCP is none of these no threat should ever be made, if they customer has gone to far then yes ban him and give him a right of appeal via another department.

In most customer service businesses if a staff member threatens a customer at all they were dismissed instantly. As the old adage goes 'Give great customer service and your customer will tell a friend, give bad customer service and they will tell 20'
And the latest figures actually show that this adage is now more true in the united states with it actually increasing to 25 people.

The easiest way to think of it is staff get paid to put on a happy face, customers pay you not too.


Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I just dont think that applies in this particular case.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Frying Doom
#331 - 2012-11-21 12:00:03 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because I just dont think that applies in this particular case.

Fair enough. I believe the opposite, a paying customer is a paying customer and that they do not need to give there money to any business.

But anyway before I go into a huge ramble.

Fair enough Smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#332 - 2012-11-21 14:30:51 UTC
Sorry for not reading everything in the thread (I got to page 6 or so), and so I don't know how much Trolls have been talked about already:

About Troll hunting and Authority Trolls

Because it is sometimes difficult to tell if a person is trolling or not here in the forums, CCP/ISD person should try to avoid going into trolling mode even as a joke. This is because they are Authority figures here (and also because trolls are nasty stinking non-creatures). If they do go to trolling mode, it is difficult for the readers to determine if this authority figure is trolling, or if he really thinks that way - and if this is the way official way CCP thinks about the matter. This difficulty of understanding adds to insecurity of your customer base. Resulting insecurity could lead to less euros/dollars in CCP Swiss accounts.

The above concerns humor to some extent too because it translates moderately at best in text form. Bad joke can insult people badly (bad pun intended).

Also, even though it isn't quite as important imo as the above, if you can do something more about non authority figures trolling around in forums, it will be appreciated.

Thank you for your hard work to make EVE and the Forums a better place,
Abigail
PS: Features & Ideas forum pretty much moderates itself; ideas disappear from the first page very quickly because of the amount of stickied posts. Maybe CCP could have a new forum area for the development ideas like ship balancing in which only CCP can start new threads, and leave F&I for player started threads? Shameless links to F&I: Agree and Ammo. First one is even related to this thread.
Harbingour
EVE Corporation 690846961
#333 - 2012-11-21 20:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Harbingour
Was this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174515&find=unread locked for trolling by the OP or the ship posters afterwards? Either way trolling, really? Talking about a catch all reason to lock a thread Roll.

IMHO using trolling as an blanket excuse for thread locking is going to stifle alot of good discourse. Straight


Meh on second read thru of that particular thread it was going no where but if the OP had reworked the OP w/o the first sentence he woulda brought up a good tactic to be discussed. The number of alt trolls though would've drowned him out admittedly Ugh...
Which goes to worries about thread locks due to trolling ship toasters after an OP...
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Harbingour
EVE Corporation 690846961
#334 - 2012-11-21 20:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Harbingour
CCP Falcon wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
Do devs or isd have a moderation quota?


Nope Smile



lol not even one NickYo post delete/threadlock per day Lol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Darth Gustav
Froosh INC.
#335 - 2012-11-21 21:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
In cases where CCP decides that a post is based on "rumor," how much fact-checking goes into the process?

Does a senior GM make the final call after fact-checking is done?

What's CCP's policy about posts determined to be rumors which are later proven to be 100% factual?

How about bans resulting from statements made on the forums which were determined to be rumor but were actually later determined to be 100% factual?

What about statements made in such a way as to be unprovable? Are they rumors by extension?

Thanks for your answers to these vexing dilemmas.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#336 - 2012-11-21 23:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

So I kindly ask:

Why is sending CCs of warnings to customers evemail accounts non-debatable?

My humblest regards
LCO

Simple answer.
Because CCP decided it is.


That's obvious, but not reasonable.

Darek Castigatus wrote:

Speculative answers
Because depending on your API settings other people may be able to read your evemail and they prefer to keep 'official' (as in GM) communications secret.


If other people would be able to read my evemail for more than the few minutes needed to verify my full API, I'd be more concerned about anything else than anything related to eve-o forums.

Moreover, if CCP forum rules wouldn't be executed entirely arbitrarily, there would be nothing to hide.

Isolating a target in the 'Petition Isolation Cell' allows a company to reply with myriads of belligerent, nonsensical and threatening replies without anyone noticing.

Common practice in Crowd Control.

Of course Communal-Celebration-Proctologists woudn't know about that...

Darek Castigatus wrote:
Because they dont want the extra traffic on the eve mail system that such a change would inevitably lead to.


Assumingly, only a small percentage of Subscribers read the forums and even less receive warnings, even when posting and getting banned without any warning (another point I was criticizsng), so compared to the traffic some client updates cause, I just have to say:

Unlikely.

Darek Castigatus wrote:

Because its adding a needless extra bit of work for someone dealing with a problem when they already have contact information for you and its not up to CCP to do extra work purely to make your life easier.



It wouldn't add work - sending a CC to a clients forum messaging inbox is a basic function of UBB forums, which this forum is clearly based on.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#337 - 2012-11-22 11:50:01 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you have an issue with how it was handled, feel free to file a petition, again.
Funny you should mention that. Although I have received two have responses to "petitions" in the last week in relatively reasonable time (cookie cutter responses though), I raised a "petition" before that over ten days ago that I am still waiting for a reply to.

My biggest concern here is the fact that the same people that moderate here are the points of escalation for forum issues. This is not what I would consider good practice with regards to separation of duties and transparency.

Without being specific that outstanding "petition" I am talking about is about a post made by the CCP employee who handles forum issue escalations. You tell me if that sounds right?

On that basis I ask why do internal affairs not look at forum matters as it would seem appropriate given the current arrangements.

One would hope that IA are not completely overwhelmed with issues of corrupt actions 24/7?
CCP Falcon
#338 - 2012-11-22 11:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Darth Gustav wrote:
In cases where CCP decides that a post is based on "rumor," how much fact-checking goes into the process?


We make sure to investigate thoroughly before we clamp down on something. In a lot of instances however, these are rumor threads that the subjects of which have been taken care of before, so we can use past judgement and do a simple double check to see that the response is still valid.

Darth Gustav wrote:
Does a senior GM make the final call after fact-checking is done?


As Community, we're kept very closely in the loop with everything that's going on at CCP so that we can answer player questions. We attend the scrum team sprint reviews, deal with all the patch notes, and keep in contact with every department in CCP to make sure that our information is up to date.

As such we generally tend to make calls based on that information, but if we're unsure, the entire company is just an instant message or phonecall away. Internal communication at CCP is the best I've seen in a company I've worked for, and I've worked for some massive corporations in the past. Plus the fact that everyone is very approachable and easy to talk to.

Darth Gustav wrote:
What's CCP's policy about posts determined to be rumors which are later proven to be 100% factual?

How about bans resulting from statements made on the forums which were determined to be rumor but were actually later determined to be 100% factual?


If there does happen to be an extremely rare instance where someone is genuinely wrongfully banned or warned, it will be repealed. No system is 100% flawless, and we have no issue with doing this on the rare occasion it does happen.

Darth Gustav wrote:
What about statements made in such a way as to be unprovable? Are they rumors by extension?


This is a really grey area, and it's something that we'll deal with on a case by case basis. If it's tantamount to harassment or is detrimental or insulting to an individual or group, then it'll more than likely be taken care of. If not, we'll gather discussion and see how we can progress from there.

Hope this answers your queries Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#339 - 2012-11-22 15:14:01 UTC
Quote:
15. Impersonating another forum user, moderator, volunteer, administrator or CCP employee is strictly prohibited.

You are expressly forbidden from impersonating anyone else, including those named above, on the forum or in the game, even in jest. This includes suggesting that CCP or volunteers will perform a task for you. This may be grounds for permanent loss of your EVE account.


The school I went to for my B.S. had a policy against bringing "any container of alcohol" onto campus. Campus security took this to mean, as anything can technically be considered a "container", that even legally ingesting alcohol at a bar and then returning to your dorm with any trace of alcohol in your system was a violation of the rule, despite the actual intentions of the board that made the rule in the first place. It took two years to change it, too, because nobody cared except for the students.

So, understanding that it's disallowed "even in jest", should this rule really be applied to, say, a thread where everyone is aware that they are quoted with the text changed for the sake of humor or cleverly delivering a point (e.g. a thread about humorous quote edits)? There is a clear difference between maliciously impersonating someone and changing the words in someone's reply to make a counterpoint.

And to be clear, I'm not arguing the specific case of the example, the thread could have been locked under a number of rule violations.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#340 - 2012-11-23 05:18:11 UTC
Personally i think banning the discussion of specific events only shows you've got something to hide about that incident and dont want people to know. Being open and willingly discussing people's opinions on specific incidents allows you to communitcate to the players that you care about them and are concerned with their opinions on the matter. If they do not understand your reasoning for the outcome, it is a great oppertunity to express why you've chosen to take the steps you did in that incident.

Covering it up just makes people wonder why. Being open about your rulings tells people you respect them and also serves as warning as to what players should avoid doing.

I agree in some instances, such as an active unpatched exploit, details should not be posted, but after the exploit is patched they should be free to discuss it in detail.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP