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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#841 - 2012-10-08 05:28:10 UTC
Ejecting change is stupid and unnecessary (of course you need to be able to eject from any ship whenever you want), and NPC timer is too long. The timer is goo, but having to extend your game session by 15 of doing nothing before you can log is a bit harsh.

.
Pipa Porto
#842 - 2012-10-08 06:27:52 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ejecting change is stupid and unnecessary (of course you need to be able to eject from any ship whenever you want), and NPC timer is too long. The timer is goo, but having to extend your game session by 15 of doing nothing before you can log is a bit harsh.


POS up or Dock up. Bam. No need to extend your session.

Soloing around in hostile space isn't supposed to be easy.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#843 - 2012-10-08 07:19:55 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
If you successfully get the runner to aggress you without you first committing a criminal act, then you have successfully baited the runner to engage in combat. However, that clearly is not what you want. You want to commit a criminal act in front of the runner in a seemingly nonthreatening ship and once he engages have someone bring you a more capable ship so that you can avoid the consequences of your choice.


That's how HS works. You have to steal from them for them to be able to shoot you without getting CONCORDed.

The consequences of the choice at the moment would be "orbit the idiot until Downtime."

Given that you're relying on the naivety of your mark to engage after you have stolen from him, you might find that an unguarded can of his coveted salvage works just as well.

"orbit the idiot until Downtime." Now that's an interesting point to explore. Since your flag for theft lasts only 15 minutes should you keep a target pointed until the flag expires what happens? I imagine your coexisting aggression would keep already active modules from alerting Concord, but what about newly activated modules. In any case, orbiting the idiot until downtime is only a consequence should you choose to maintain the stalemate by keeping your point, or you could just warp away. Warp disruptors aren't typical on a PVE fit since mission rats don't try to escape.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#844 - 2012-10-08 07:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daioh Azu
Pipa Porto wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
So I need to ask, exactly what are you relying on to get that kill? Are you relying on a panicked runner to stop spamming his warp button while you're swapping ships to keep him on grid, or are you relying on whether you can swap ships, reestablish your lock, and apply a new point before the cycle time of your frigate point expires?

It is an important question. On one hand you could be an experience combat veteran who's nerves of steal triumph over a panicked and flustered newb. On the other, you are a skill-less griefer exploiting a broken mechanic for a risk free kill.


Wait, so preying on people who are too new at the game to figure out how to warp given a full minute is "Pr0,"

No, but "preying on people who are too new at the game to" have learned the aggression mechanics and their exploits isn't "Pr0" either.
Pipa Porto wrote:
but multiboxing effectively in PvP to eject, board, reacquire lock while bumping the target for the 20+s it takes to do so is "skill-less"? Wow.

No ma'am. That would indeed be very skillful, if you were in fact using those "l33t" piloting skills of yours to simultaneously bump your target out of alignment, while having an Orca alt deliver your p0wnmobile, swapping ships, relocking, and repointing. That would indeed be impressive. I'd just like to remind you of your previous statement.
Pipa Porto wrote:
Once the Mission Runner fires, how long do you think he's going to stick around once the Orca lands on grid to bring out the gank ship? You need a point on your bait ship to keep the aggressor around.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either your uber skills are enough to keep your target on grid, or it's your point that's doing it. While both might be capable, either one makes the other redundant. I think we know on which you rely.
Pipa Porto wrote:
It still doesn't deal with the problem that the Suspect Flag reduces the mission runner's incentive to be in a corp even further (If anyone can help you without consequence, why bother making friends ahead of time?).

Comes now the Defendant, The Strawman, by and through his/her Attorney of Record, and for the answer to Plaintiff's complaint states and alleges...

Sorry for the hyperbole but I asked a perfectly legitimate question, is it the baiters skill combined the targets inexperience that keeps the runner on grid while the baiter swaps ships, or is the baiter exploiting a broken cycle timer mechanic? While your reply here supports the former, your previous statements support the latter. Clearly, you have no idea so you propose the boogieman of how this is one less incentive for mission runners to enter player corps! Strong finish, very strong.
Pipa Porto
#845 - 2012-10-08 07:35:42 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Given that you're relying on the naivety of your mark to engage after you have stolen from him, you might find that an unguarded can of his coveted salvage works just as well.
Except that mission runners don't loot with their mission ship.

Quote:
"orbit the idiot until Downtime." Now that's an interesting point to explore. Since your flag for theft lasts only 15 minutes should you keep a target pointed until the flag expires what happens? I imagine your coexisting aggression would keep already active modules from alerting Concord, but what about newly activated modules. In any case, orbiting the idiot until downtime is only a consequence should you choose to maintain the stalemate by keeping your point, or you could just warp away. Warp disruptors aren't typical on a PVE fit since mission rats don't try to escape.


Wrong flag. You (as the ninja) can only point someone after they have shot at you.

That's the problem. The Missionbear will be able to shoot at the interloping frigates with impunity because they know the Frigate can't break their tank, the ninja can't switch to something that can shoot, and even if the ninja does manage to make the switch, everyone in local can come for the free gank instead of having to rely on previously formalized social contacts (corpmates).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#846 - 2012-10-08 07:45:17 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:

No, but "preying on people who are too new at the game to" have learned the aggression mechanics and their exploits isn't "Pr0" either.


Never said it was. You're the one claiming it's the example of "nerves of steel."

Since when is teaching someone that "shooting someone allows them to shoot back" an exploit?


Quote:
No ma'am. That would indeed be very skillful, if you were in fact using those "l33t" piloting skills of yours to simultaneously bump your target out of alignment, while having an Orca alt deliver your p0wnmobile, swapping ships, relocking, and repointing. That would indeed be impressive. I'd just like to remind you of your previous statement.


That's how switching ships works in this context. You bring the Orca around, bump the target, eject (dropping the point and incurring a 10s timer), board the ship, relock, and re-point.

Quote:
Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either your uber skills are enough to keep your target on grid, or it's your point that's doing it. While both might be capable, either one makes the other redundant. I think we know on which you rely.


The point keeps the target on grid while the Orca slowboats for several minutes (they're really slow). Then there's the fancy ship switching dance. It's almost like you have no experience with what we're discussing.

Quote:

Comes now the Defendant, The Strawman, by and through his/her Attorney of Record, and for the answer to Plaintiff's complaint states and alleges...

Sorry for the hyperbole but I asked a perfectly legitimate question, is it the baiters skill combined the targets inexperience that keeps the runner on grid while the baiter swaps ships, or is the baiter exploiting a broken cycle timer mechanic? While reply here supports the former, your previous statements support the latter. Clearly, you have no idea so you propose the boogieman of how this is one less incentive for mission runners to enter player corps! Strong finish, very strong.


What cycle timer? Your point drops the instant you eject. Bumping is what keeps the target on grid for the switch. The initial tackle keeps the target on grid while the Orca shows up. Different parts of the process.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#847 - 2012-10-08 07:51:50 UTC
I still wonder about 15 minute anti log-offski timer from NPCs.

Ratting in 0.0, warping to pos and logging off because you know real life sometimes calls.
Neut incoming 5 minutes after i logged off and scans down my ratting ship which warped "safe" and now stands outside the force field. He puts web or point on my ship and has endless time to kill it.


If that is correct EVERYONE would be forced to stay 15 minutes logged in doing nothing before logging off. That would be very bad.

Please give some verification how this mechanic works.
Would be know problem if ships stay in FF 15 minutes after log out and than warp safe. But getting killed because you had to hurry off won't be entertaining.
Pipa Porto
#848 - 2012-10-08 08:03:31 UTC
Chanina wrote:
I still wonder about 15 minute anti log-offski timer from NPCs.

Ratting in 0.0, warping to pos and logging off because you know real life sometimes calls.
Neut incoming 5 minutes after i logged off and scans down my ratting ship which warped "safe" and now stands outside the force field. He puts web or point on my ship and has endless time to kill it.


First, you don't know how logging off at a POS works. (HINT: You don't warp anywhere)

Second, the Devblog mentions that the timer is not extendible.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#849 - 2012-10-08 08:18:28 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Given that you're relying on the naivety of your mark to engage after you have stolen from him, you might find that an unguarded can of his coveted salvage works just as well.
Except that mission runners don't loot with their mission ship.

I was in fact suggesting that the baiter salvage the runners wrecks and leave a conveniently placed unguarded can as he goes after some far off wreck. Granted, most newbs are only like to faill for this tactic once, but the same is true for your bait and ship swap tactic.
Pipa Porto wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
"orbit the idiot until Downtime." Now that's an interesting point to explore. Since your flag for theft lasts only 15 minutes should you keep a target pointed until the flag expires what happens? I imagine your coexisting aggression would keep already active modules from alerting Concord, but what about newly activated modules. In any case, orbiting the idiot until downtime is only a consequence should you choose to maintain the stalemate by keeping your point, or you could just warp away. Warp disruptors aren't typical on a PVE fit since mission rats don't try to escape.


Wrong flag. You (as the ninja) can only point someone after they have shot at you.

That's the problem. The Missionbear will be able to shoot at the interloping frigates with impunity because they know the Frigate can't break their tank, the ninja can't switch to something that can shoot, and even if the ninja does manage to make the switch, everyone in local can come for the free gank instead of having to rely on previously formalized social contacts (corpmates).

Please read again. I am aware that in your scenario the baiter can't point his target without a Concordoken until the target fires first. However the taget can't fire first without a Concordoken if the baiter hasn't already been flagged for theft. That is flag to which I refer in my musings.

Precisely how can everyone in local come for the free gank? Isn't this baiting taking place in a mission dead space, whether it be gated or not gated? Unless everyone in local are all in the same fleet, they will have to scan the mission site down, just as you did. Generally I can't get most people to talk in local, let alone get them to join my fleet.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#850 - 2012-10-08 08:36:58 UTC
Chanina wrote:
I still wonder about 15 minute anti log-offski timer from NPCs.

Ratting in 0.0, warping to pos and logging off because you know real life sometimes calls.
Neut incoming 5 minutes after i logged off and scans down my ratting ship which warped "safe" and now stands outside the force field. He puts web or point on my ship and has endless time to kill it.


If that is correct EVERYONE would be forced to stay 15 minutes logged in doing nothing before logging off. That would be very bad.

Please give some verification how this mechanic works.
Would be know problem if ships stay in FF 15 minutes after log out and than warp safe. But getting killed because you had to hurry off won't be entertaining.


If you logoff in a POS with a timer then your ship just stays inside the POS shields.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#851 - 2012-10-08 08:38:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Roime wrote:
Ejecting change is stupid and unnecessary (of course you need to be able to eject from any ship whenever you want), and NPC timer is too long. The timer is goo, but having to extend your game session by 15 of doing nothing before you can log is a bit harsh.


POS up or Dock up. Bam. No need to extend your session.

Soloing around in hostile space isn't supposed to be easy.


It isn't easy, but this change doesn't have anything to do with "EVE is hard", just adds a mandatory 15min timer before you can log off.

.
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#852 - 2012-10-08 09:02:43 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Chanina wrote:
I still wonder about 15 minute anti log-offski timer from NPCs.

Ratting in 0.0, warping to pos and logging off because you know real life sometimes calls.
Neut incoming 5 minutes after i logged off and scans down my ratting ship which warped "safe" and now stands outside the force field. He puts web or point on my ship and has endless time to kill it.


If that is correct EVERYONE would be forced to stay 15 minutes logged in doing nothing before logging off. That would be very bad.

Please give some verification how this mechanic works.
Would be know problem if ships stay in FF 15 minutes after log out and than warp safe. But getting killed because you had to hurry off won't be entertaining.


If you logoff in a POS with a timer then your ship just stays inside the POS shields.


Thanks for that one. Might still happen that you log off outside a pos for some reasons (a carrier on safespot for example)

Think there was some Q&A on eve vegas
Sugar Kyle(blog) wrote:
Logoff for NPC aggression is that to hurt people?

Its a sixty second logoff timer for NPC aggression not 15 minutes.

http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com/

Khoda Khan
Vatlaa Corporation
#853 - 2012-10-08 09:07:57 UTC
Nice changes coming to Crimewatch!

I especially like the idea of can flippers being flagged suspect to everyone. A few people have alluded to this being unfair, but as a former can flipper I think I would prefer this system as a skilled PVPer is likely to get far more fights out of Crimewatch v2 than under the existing system. Sometimes they may not be the fights they're looking for, but is that necessarily a bad thing?

One thing that I had been hoping to see implemented in the new Crimewatch system didn't make an appearance, and that was a change in how sec status is gained and lost. To make a very long story short, I quit playing EVE nearly two years ago, though I keep my account logged in and a skill always in training.

It would take me maybe a week to recover my -7.5 sec status to a positive number by jumping in a bomber and running system to system hunting NPC BS, but I just can't bring myself to be bothered to do so. I tried it once, worked myself from -9.8 to -7.5, but the sheer boredom of shooting at NPCs just puts me off from logging in and doing it even in short stretches of a few minutes each.

It's always struck me as strange that security losses are the result of PVP but security gains are the result of PVE. I would be playing again, and very regularly, if I could regain my sec status by hunting other negative sec status players, even if the gains had to be sub current NPC gains to prevent the system from being gamed. It could take me six months... a year even... to do what I could do ratting NPCs in a week... I'd go with the PVP option every time, because that at least would be interesting and fun rather than mind-numbingly boring.

In my perfect world, sec status could only be gained or lost through PVP. Anyone who didn't partake would be forever stuck at 0.0 sec status.

!Khoda
Pipa Porto
#854 - 2012-10-08 10:49:28 UTC
Roime wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Roime wrote:
Ejecting change is stupid and unnecessary (of course you need to be able to eject from any ship whenever you want), and NPC timer is too long. The timer is goo, but having to extend your game session by 15 of doing nothing before you can log is a bit harsh.


POS up or Dock up. Bam. No need to extend your session.

Soloing around in hostile space isn't supposed to be easy.


It isn't easy, but this change doesn't have anything to do with "EVE is hard", just adds a mandatory 15min timer before you can log off.


And I think that's a lesser problem than the essentially invulnerable state of the current Ratting Carrier.

First Line of Defense: Local Flashing and Updating before the new person loads grid.
Second Line: 10s Scan Timer.
Third Line: Warp Time
Fourth Line: Being ~100km off the Warpin of the site. (Luv You Sentries)
Fifth Line: Even if all the other lines of defense fail, simply log off before the Interceptor finishes landing on grid. 60s later, *poof*

What about a 5 minute timer that's extensible like the PC aggro timer? Reduces the wait before logging in normal circumstances while removing people's ability to Loggoffski to prevent being caught while their pants are down and they're grasping their ankles.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Traidir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#855 - 2012-10-08 10:56:09 UTC
From the chart: "Disrupt another player's warp with warp disruption bubble" in "other sec" causes pvp flag

There are two potential problems with this. TheMaster42 has pointed out one possible one.

TheMaster42 wrote:
So will the PvP flag appear on your screen when you INITIATE warp and are going to get pulled in by a drag bubble (so you can cancel your warp in response)?

Even if the flag is not applied until the ship reaches the bubble, because the flags are now visible, a bubbling ship will know when an incoming cloaked ship has been affected by his bubble. I.E. You've turned them into limited tech 2 cloak detectors....
Pipa Porto
#856 - 2012-10-08 10:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Daioh Azu wrote:
I was in fact suggesting that the baiter salvage the runners wrecks and leave a conveniently placed unguarded can as he goes after some far off wreck. Granted, most newbs are only like to faill for this tactic once, but the same is true for your bait and ship swap tactic.


Problem with that. Taking their can back will not flag them for violence under Crimewatch 2.0.

[EDIT]Let me rephrase that. Taking a can from a suspect will not give you any flags. And taking from someone else's can gives you a giant warning sign (or will be made impossible by the Safety system).[/EDIT]

Gotta read those pesky Dev Blogs.

Daioh Azu wrote:
Please read again. I am aware that in your scenario the baiter can't point his target without a Concordoken until the target fires first. However the taget can't fire first without a Concordoken if the baiter hasn't already been flagged for theft. That is flag to which I refer in my musings.

Precisely how can everyone in local come for the free gank? Isn't this baiting taking place in a mission dead space, whether it be gated or not gated? Unless everyone in local are all in the same fleet, they will have to scan the mission site down, just as you did. Generally I can't get most people to talk in local, let alone get them to join my fleet.


Your Theft flag is irrelevant to keeping the mission runner pointed. Their aggression flag for shooting you is continually refreshed as you shoot/point/whatever them. Other than changing the name of the flag to a PvP Flag, Crimewatch 2.0 isn't going to change that.

Right Click -> Invite to Fleet

Unlike LS, this cannot lead to an effective trap, and the interlopers can wait to engage until they're sure of victory.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#857 - 2012-10-08 10:58:11 UTC
Traidir wrote:
From the chart: "Disrupt another player's warp with warp disruption bubble" in "other sec" causes pvp flag

There are two potential problems with this. TheMaster42 has pointed out one possible one.

TheMaster42 wrote:
So will the PvP flag appear on your screen when you INITIATE warp and are going to get pulled in by a drag bubble (so you can cancel your warp in response)?

Even if the flag is not applied until the ship reaches the bubble, because the flags are now visible, a bubbling ship will know when an incoming cloaked ship has been affected by his bubble. I.E. You've turned them into limited tech 2 cloak detectors....


That's awesome.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#858 - 2012-10-08 11:33:34 UTC
Traidir wrote:
From the chart: "Disrupt another player's warp with warp disruption bubble" in "other sec" causes pvp flag

There are two potential problems with this. TheMaster42 has pointed out one possible one.

TheMaster42 wrote:
So will the PvP flag appear on your screen when you INITIATE warp and are going to get pulled in by a drag bubble (so you can cancel your warp in response)?

Even if the flag is not applied until the ship reaches the bubble, because the flags are now visible, a bubbling ship will know when an incoming cloaked ship has been affected by his bubble. I.E. You've turned them into limited tech 2 cloak detectors....


Chances are the it's tied to the person actually trying to warp from inside the bubble, similar to how bubbles get you on killmails.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#859 - 2012-10-08 12:00:56 UTC
Sounds awesome so far. Could you please add something that turns some kind of EW from aggression to assists? Like webbing a freighter within a fleet (this is a keyword here) is not an offense, but aiding it. Could you please build in supporting this usecase?
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#860 - 2012-10-08 12:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
OT Smithers wrote:

Bart,

Respectfully, you do not understand the whole situation. As bad as the problem is in high sec, it is FAR worse in low. The reason people have been hesitant to elaborate is because we already deal with this crap enough without posting it on the forums.

Ultimately what it comes down to is this: Certain players are risk averse. They want the excitement of the kill, they love the tears, but they insist on immunity for themselves. Whether we are talking about ganking miners or haulers, baiting mission runners, or parking a mach and a carrier in the station superstructure in low, the goal is the same.

Those who defend these exploits (and justify their use of them) love to say things like "Eve is a harsh place" and "Don't undock what you can't lose," but they say them unaware of the taint of hypocrisy clinging to their words. They are the ones most afraid of losing. Baiting mission runners is like an adult man heading to the local Kindergarten looking to pick a fight with a five year old -- and insisting that you need this ship swapping nonsense is like that same adult managing to find a fiesty five-year-old... then panicking and pulling out a gun because the little guy put of a fight.

CCP is changing it to where you will no longer be able to pull that gun. You can still head to that school, you can still pick on the little kids you find there, but now, finally, you are going to have to risk not only that kid kicking your ass, but the adults stepping in to help them.


First, you stated a falsehood - "the only reason people would do this is to save their ship".
Thats what I spent two pages going around with Tippia about.
High sec ninjas don't care about 'saving' anything. We just need a way to bring additional DPS to bust PVE tanks, after we've killed their drones and have them scrammed and webbed.

Crimewatch makes them even safer, as all they need to do is call out in local, fleet with a willing vigilante that can outrun the Orca to the site. In addition to this, new NPC AI makes all of this more unpredictable and more difficult to pull off.

Don't be so quick to take the carebear's side.

We aren't talking about picking on some 5 day old noob in a LVL 1 mission....
We are talking about mission runners in faction fit CNRs.
We are talking about Marauders.
We are talking about carebears with years of mission running under their belt, not 'kids'.

And as it is, they only fall for stuff like this....occasionally. You generally need to scan down a lot of bots and Drakes before you find someone who will dance with you.
The bait that is dangled before them is a 'PVP' kill against an annoying 'weak' ninja frigate.
They think 'LOL easy kill on a Heron'
When they take it, and the Heron turns the tables on them, why shouldn't they be put at SOME kind of risk?
Why should the ninja be expected to have to kill the CNR in a Heron (impossible), or allow the target 60 seconds to escape (will happen 99.5% of the time)? Remember, the CNR shot first....

Besides. the most dangerous thing we can even haul into a mission with an Orca is a BC sized ship. It shouldn't be too hard to get enough help after CW 2.0 to deal with a lone Plated Neut Hurricane. (Roll Oh wait, those got nerfed too.)I thought THAT was the point of Crimewatch - putting security in player hands.....not completely hamstringing the criminals to the point where they don't even bother anymore....