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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#581 - 2012-10-05 04:21:38 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Ok, can-flipping question here.... When you incur your Suspect flag, does it retro-actively affect every can/wreck you have in space? Or does it only affect cans/wrecks that are jettisoned AFTER you get the flag?

Because the way a "professional can-flipper" (ie. griefer) works, is you fly up to the can, jettison your own can, then move everything from their can to yours. Depending on how the flags are handled determines whether or not you can effectively steal from another player solo. Cuz if the flag is retro-actively applied, then they can just take back their items with no problems at all. That effectively negates thievery from the game... which ain't very "sandbox". Cuz you should be able to steal other kids toys.

Note this is easily overcome if you steal as a duo. Form a fleet, one player drops a can, other player does the can-flipping. But that is far too much effort for something as lame as can-flipping.

Just have a hauler right there in fleet or whatever to whoosh the goods away as soon as they appear if you really want them.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#582 - 2012-10-05 04:38:03 UTC
Jarin Arenos wrote:
Come on, somebody has to give a crap about the massive headache that is getting handed to mission runners with the NPC flag's introduction...

Ummmm.... no?
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#583 - 2012-10-05 04:47:34 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Ok, can-flipping question here.... When you incur your Suspect flag, does it retro-actively affect every can/wreck you have in space? Or does it only affect cans/wrecks that are jettisoned AFTER you get the flag?

Because the way a "professional can-flipper" (ie. griefer) works, is you fly up to the can, jettison your own can, then move everything from their can to yours. Depending on how the flags are handled determines whether or not you can effectively steal from another player solo. Cuz if the flag is retro-actively applied, then they can just take back their items with no problems at all. That effectively negates thievery from the game... which ain't very "sandbox". Cuz you should be able to steal other kids toys.

Note this is easily overcome if you steal as a duo. Form a fleet, one player drops a can, other player does the can-flipping. But that is far too much effort for something as lame as can-flipping.

Just have a hauler right there in fleet or whatever to whoosh the goods away as soon as they appear if you really want them.

Yah... but that right there is what they are trying to get rid of. You aren't getting PvP you are tricking someone into a mechanic they don't know about yet because they are nubs. That's not pvp that's just asshattery. The only people that would fall for that are nub and are not making much isk anyway. If you know enough to know that mechanic you wouldn't need to steal from nubs to make a lot more isk. The only reason people do that is for the lulz... and if that's what you want go gank someone. Leave the nubs to mine their veldspar in .7

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#584 - 2012-10-05 04:52:06 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I understand you are trying to fix the orca swap trick in both highsec and on gates, but the way you have it implemented is rather ham-fistedand breaks a bunch of other things, like ejected from a ship before a sabre bubbles you


Perhaps the self destruct timer should be reduced to a few seconds....

Essentially, the pros and cons of preventing ejecting:

Pro:
--- T3 Skill losses will become much more common place (as was INTENDED).
--- You can't save ships by scooping them into an orca/carrier hangar bay...
--- People can't eject from a ship to potentially avoid embarrassing losses.

Cons:
--- In nullsec, people sometimes hold your ship in place and bring in a dictor to get your pod.... (or a smart bombing BS in lowsec)... you typically can't prevent this by eject/warping... (although more pod losses are a pro IMO).
--- If people typically can't eject from their ship, capturing ships will become much less common (I've caught many ships because of this tactic, including freighters and BS's... I'll miss them).
--- People can't switch ships to "bait'n'switch" a mission runner that was successfully baited into aggressing when they shouldn't have...


I agree with Michael on this one (as noted above). Find a different way to prevent ship-scooping and bait-and-switch (use the PVP flag).

Not having the choice to bail out and leave capturable stuff rather than a killmail is bad. Choices are good.
Losing skillpoints by force rather than choice in a T3 is bad. Choices are good.
Skill loss will not become more common, T3 PVP pilots, especially Skill 5 pilots, will become less common. That's bad.

The weight here is on a ham-handed nerf to the ninja crowd, but cascades to many other Unforseen (Bad) Consequences.


A couple of thoughts:
1.) If your t3 ship is blown up... you should lose the SP... IMO, the ONLY way you should NOT lose SP, is if the enemy boards your T3 and makes it their own!

2.) Scooping ships into the SMA of another ship, to save it from distruction, is a very cheesy and broken mechanic, and should be fixed.

So, if you can code in the above 2 principles while still allowing people to eject from their ships, then let it be done... If you can't, then perhaps a change to the self destruct mechanism is appropriate. Reduce the self destruct to a few seconds in length, and then let the remaining pod warp away and/or board another ship.
T'Shorin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2012-10-05 05:05:27 UTC
If I am reading the charts and discussion correctly, using ECM creates a W flag, preventing jumping/docking/ejecting. But isn't ECM a defensive action, or is it only ECM bursts?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#586 - 2012-10-05 05:09:49 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Rayemmi B'tes wrote:
Masterplan, any comment on our bit about offgrid boosters getting agression?

Fleet boosters and ganglinks won't be getting touched by any of this. It's not that we don't want to do something about them (we do) it is just that there is only so many things we can commit to changing at once. Revamping ganglinks is a larger issue that needs some dedicated attention.


Disappointing. Why not give them a flag until such time as this can be better dealt with?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#587 - 2012-10-05 05:12:23 UTC
T'Shorin wrote:
If I am reading the charts and discussion correctly, using ECM creates a W flag, preventing jumping/docking/ejecting. But isn't ECM a defensive action, or is it only ECM bursts?


ECM, and almost all EWAR is not a DEFENSIVE action.... Sure, it doesn't directly blow up an enemies ship, but that doesn't make it defensive... as it usually puts that ship in a position where it'll die easy...
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#588 - 2012-10-05 05:12:35 UTC
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
What's the reason for giving 15 min logout timers to ships with npc aggression?

What reason did you guys feel compelled to change all player structure shoots to pvp aggression when armed pvp structures already cause pvp aggression?


I like it. It will make hunting players in null sec a whole lot more enjoyable.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#589 - 2012-10-05 05:18:09 UTC
Steven Hackett wrote:
I can see why one might want to penalize T3 losses with skillloss.. After all, EVE is not about PVP, but about ratting and RMT'ing the isk.. right? Roll

Anyway.. I see why ejecting before a T3 loss is not the way it should be.. But.. Removing ejecting also removes the dynamic small scale PVP.. Ex. preventing me from switching ship mid fight from my carrier friend to counter whatever just entered grid.. I see this as a big loss tbh.
And i believe a Mastermind could find a better solution to his needs for punishing PVP'ers who risk the isk ;b

Edit: also, i presume the 1min no-jump timer still doesn't count for w-space right? :) If that is not the case, I might need to dig out the pitchfork ;b


You listed the one possible "good" application of this. In practice what it really created was a bunch of garbage, with carriers and orcas serving as instant "get out of jail free" PvP escape pods. Under this, if you want to shoot other people you will have to put your ship on the line.

My only complaint so far is that off grid boosters do not get flagged as well.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#590 - 2012-10-05 05:18:24 UTC
T'Shorin wrote:
If I am reading the charts and discussion correctly, using ECM creates a W flag, preventing jumping/docking/ejecting. But isn't ECM a defensive action, or is it only ECM bursts?


Judging from the forums, I would class ECM as offensive. Heck, class ECM as indecentLol

Please explain how someone warping into my mission or anomaly and jamming my logistics/tracking link a lot is not an offensive action?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Pipa Porto
#591 - 2012-10-05 05:56:48 UTC
Quote:
Stealing from a container will expose you to potential attacks from all players (but not from sentry guns). The existing rules for what constitutes 'legal access' to a container are the same (I am the owner of the container, I am in the corp registered to the container, I am in the fleet registered to the container, The container is Abandoned), but we are adding one additional rule: If I can legally attack the owner of a container, then I can legally take from the container.


Is there a specific reason why you want to be rid of Freighter ganking as a profitable enterprise? (To be more specific, it puts the safe cargo limit at 10+B ISK*, which is more or less the same thing)

Secondly, is there a specific reason why you want to get rid of can flipping as a way to initiate combat**?


Are either of those answers going to differ significantly from "we want to make HS safe?"


*Cost of Ganking + Sacrificial Freighter to pick up the loot (in the same corp as real looting freighter) + The fact that the loot has to survive two ship explosions.

**Hampered as it already is by other recent changes.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Nycodemis
National Institute of Mental Health
#592 - 2012-10-05 06:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nycodemis
I've not read the 30 pages yet, but as I understand it;

HIC's get a Weapons flag even if no one is on grid. Fire a non-targeted offensive device with not a soul in sight (or cloaked) and you get a mandatory 60 second time-out. Really? What the hell? This helps anyone how? The Weapons flag should not be used unless someone/something is directly affected by the offensive system activated. Otherwise it's just a way to slow things down, **** people off and waste resources.

That raises another question... Does a Weapons flag affect jumping through holes? If it does that means HIC's can no longer use their bubbles to reduce their mass on the hole. Even if that's not the case, the Weapons flag without affecting other players or the environment is asinine regardless of the offensive system in use.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#593 - 2012-10-05 06:15:46 UTC
Nycodemis wrote:
I've not read the 30 pages yet, but as I understand it;

HIC's get a Weapons flag even if no one is on grid. Fire a gun, missile, smartbomb, etc with not a soul in sight (or cloaked) and you get a mandatory 60 second time-out. Really? What the hell? This helps anyone how? The Weapons flag should not be used unless someone/something is directly affected by the offensive system activated. Otherwise it's just a way to slow things down, **** people off and waste resources.

That raises another question... Does a Weapons flag affect jumping through holes? If it does that means HIC's can no longer use their bubbles to reduce their mass on the hole. Even if that's not the case, the Weapons flag without affecting other players or the environment is asinine regardless of the offensive system in use.


You can jump through Wormholes even while you aggressing somebody. It is meant for gates, wh cannot deny you jump because they don't know your shooting somebody. Gates do.

On that note, I like what I am reading so far. Should be interesting.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Nycodemis
National Institute of Mental Health
#594 - 2012-10-05 06:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nycodemis
I've not read the 30 pages yet, but as I understand it;

HIC's get a Weapons flag even if no one is on grid. Fire a non-targeted offensive device with not a soul in sight (or cloaked) and you get a mandatory 60 second time-out. Really? What the hell? This helps anyone how? The Weapons flag should not be used unless someone/something is directly affected by the offensive system activated. Otherwise it's just a way to slow things down, **** people off and waste resources.

Otherwise... Sexy!


CCP Masterplan wrote:
Note that we're not attempting to dumb down the system, or restrict what you can or cannot do.

Does movement count?
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#595 - 2012-10-05 06:23:21 UTC
Dev Blog wrote:

NPC Flag: This flag is activated when a player uses offensive modules against an NPC (or vice-versa). Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space.


Does the ship warp "save" or does it stay where it is?

Little scenario:
Ratting with an alt, pvp char somewhere on standby.
PvP incoming, warping ratting ship under POS and logging off to PvP.

Finding out that the enemy has managed to scan down your ratting ship because it warped "save" out of the FF and got killed. Wouldn't be much of a problem but you HAVE to KNOW if it is the case.

If ships don't stay where they are you would always have to stop any activity 15 min before you really want to log off. Unnecessary wait times won't be that good.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#596 - 2012-10-05 06:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Hmmm...my overall impression is that CrimeWatch 2 has very little to do with controlling crime --

and a WHOLE lot to do with FORCING PVP encounters to a decisive conclusion if I understand correctly.

(Ignore - Totally confused PVP flag with weapons flag - read line too low in chart)

#1 Once an aggressor shoots a target ship that target can no longer duck back into a station regardless of whether its a legal target or not. So you are also warp jammed -- you better have the superior combat ship.

Hmmm..can pirate T1 BCs tank station guns long enough to kill Mackinaws and Hulks once redocking is no longer an option for mining pilots?

Will CCP make station guns destructible again to encourage this sort of engagement? Didn't I see a blog where CCP said intensified PVP conflict was its main overall improvement goal for EVE as whole and hi sec in particular over the next year or so? Something about raising combat losses to where T2 ships would become far less common once more.

#2 Haulers can no longer escape ambushes by jumping gates. Mainly affects freighters and Orcas. Other haulers can simply warp away from GCC attackers which now have front-loaded warp disable. Although being unable to dock at stations will keep especially valuable cargoes vulnerable to additional attackers for 60 seconds.

NEGATIVE ASPECTS:

Mining players who do escape combat encounters are prohibited from switching ships and returning as part of intruder response group. This heavily favors the aggressor groups in sparsely populated null or wh space. However, this does logically follow a physics module which says weapons firing and impacts create dangerous high energy charges on the exterior of both involved ships.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#597 - 2012-10-05 06:39:31 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Just have a hauler right there in fleet or whatever to whoosh the goods away as soon as they appear if you really want them.
Meh. A single hauler load is hardly worth stealing. You want an entire can-full to flip, which is multiple hauler loads. You want to have taken enough of their time, that they and their entire corp will come gunning for you.

You can easily steal a hauler load of ore with this new system if that is all you are after. Just cruise around cloaked, bookmark cans, swap to a hauler, warp to can, loot and warp off. But that's not the point. Miners won't care. A hauler load is just a few minutes of mining time lost. That's not worth risking their ship over. But if you take a half-hour, or an hour, of their work. Then they get pissed. And that's when they get their combat ships. And that IS the point.

This new system (if the Suspect flag is retro-active) eliminates that. Can/wreck flipping just becomes an "Open PvP Flag - On" button, with no real meaning or context. You can only take what you can fit into your cargo, and that really ain't much in the overall scheme of things. Nobody is going to care. And in the end it will reduce another form of player interaction (albeit rather violent interaction). And that is not a good thing. Things that promote conflict on the other hand are good. Conflict is what drives this game.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#598 - 2012-10-05 06:45:00 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
Hmmm...my overall impression is that CrimeWatch 2 has very little to do with controlling crime --

and a WHOLE lot to do with FORCING PVP encounters to a decisive conclusion if I understand correctly.

#1 Once an aggressor shoots a target ship that target can no longer duck back into a station regardless of whether its a legal target or not. So you are also warp jammed -- you better have the superior combat ship.

Hmmm..can pirate T1 BCs tank station guns long enough to kill Mackinaws and Hulks once redocking is no longer an option for mining pilots?

Will CCP make station guns destructible again to encourage this sort of engagement? Didn't I see a blog where CCP said intensified PVP conflict was its main overall improvement goal for EVE as whole and hi sec in particular over the next year or so? Something about raising combat losses to where T2 ships would become far less common once more.

#2 Haulers can no longer escape ambushes by jumping gates. Mainly affects freighters and Orcas. Other haulers can simply warp away from GCC attackers which now have front-loaded warp disable. Although being unable to dock at stations will keep especially valuable cargoes vulnerable to additional attackers for 60 seconds.

NEGATIVE ASPECTS:

Mining players who do escape combat encounters are prohibited from switching ships and returning as part of intruder response group. This heavily favors the aggressor groups in sparsely populated null or wh space. However, this does logically follow a physics module which says weapons firing and impacts create dangerous high energy charges on the exterior of both involved ships.



What are you talking about.....

1.) If you don't aggress someone, nor provide remote assistance to someone that's aggressing someone, you won't get a weapons flag, meaning you can dock, jump, warp (assuming your not scrammed), or whatever... So, those macks and hulks can redock just fine... unless they do something really stupid...

2.) See point 1.... and think about it...


Go re-read the dev blog and get a clue....
Udonor
Doomheim
#599 - 2012-10-05 06:47:02 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
Hmmm...my overall impression is that CrimeWatch 2 has very little to do with controlling crime --

and a WHOLE lot to do with FORCING PVP encounters to a decisive conclusion if I understand correctly.



What's wrong with that?

EVE needs more crime and PVP to keep things lively. Not less.

So what's missing from the CCP concept if this is their goal?

#1 IdeaBig smile Weapons flag should prevent entry inside POS shield - not just storing and switching ships. Completes symmetry of being unable to dock at NPC stations.

Why? Same old residual weapon firing or being hit effects. Charge can't pass shields or is radiating too much damaging energy to allow inside.

No big deal except if attacker faces POS guns he can finish off weak, near dead ships which have 60 seconds to wait before they stop bouncing off POS shields.

More conclusive and decisive PVP and fewer cowards able to succesfully run to POS for cover.


#2 IdeaTwisted Weapons flags disables warp on both shooter and any targets shooter actually hits.

New physics model or new weapons tech says the residual charges from weapons firing and explosions messes up warp drive and warp computers (doubly jammed). Warp jamming modules are still good for targets turrets are not immediately hitting.

This makes a lot more sense than MAGIC warp disable on GCC flagged folks alone.

No PVP escape - all combat to the death. Once combat starts anyone firing or hit cannot leave grid until combat is complete. MWD might work as warp drive in degraded mode.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#600 - 2012-10-05 06:55:47 UTC
Linking the weaponsswitch with the ejectbutton is not optimal imo.
Not even minmatar would design something like that.

Ejecting is a viable thing to do in w-space:
-T3 SPloss: While it is fine if you loose one ship once a month there are people looking for fights all the time. And if you loose the wrong skill you won´t be able to fly your favorite ship for another 5 days. And we are often forced to use T3 because we have masslimits on holes and the need for tanky cloaked tackle. Because Sleepers f.e. If you point a ratter in a bomber/recon you are dead most times before your buddies finish warp.
-PODsaving: The best fights happens if something shiny gets pointed and both sides are having a slugfest and just reship after they exploded. I remember fights when pilots reshipped 4 times and just kept coming. Not possible anymore because many people stated already it´s so easy to get a pod when you know when he is going to go pop.
Also it´s not like we can just come back home via clonejump or something like that. If you loose your POD in a fight and your friends loose the entrie fight you are out of your home without a way back in unless the wining side decides to not stick around.
So people will often not fight anymore because of this.
-Changed ships because new targets arrived: So you are rolling your hole and a bomber uncloaks and points something. OFC everyone shoots it. Then his friends arrive and you warp off to change ships and hlep your buddies on the hole. Or not, since you´ll be sitting at your POS of 60 sec, unable to change ship. We are forced to use certain kinds of ships for holerolling and are already at a disadvantage.
-Storing ships in a carrier/orca midfight: In w-space this is called expensive orcakillmail. Because we have (almost) no timers and we like it that way.
Also how many times does an orca get pointed then launches a combatship from the sma, jumps into that and fights the attackers. The winner gets to keep the orca and make fun of the looser. Was always fun.