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I'll reserve judgement unitl Super Friends blog comes out, but atm it's being implied that just the simple act of shooting first results in Kill Rights.

So if someone who's -4.9 charges me in a low sec belt and I do the intelligent thing and shoot, no matter the outcome they get kill rights ?

Thus, even in low sec, the only way i can avoid looking over my sholder for a month is to flip a can ? Or put myself at a distinct disadvantage by always having to wait for someone else to shoot first ?

Sorry, but if left unchanged you've very severly damaged low sec pvp.

The existing system, quite frankly, works perfectly. If you never get a chance to defend yourself ( ie: you get blobbed ) you can get payback 1 v 1. These proposed changed completely inbalance that.

I can see a great many people who principaly live in high sec, but who do random roams into LS, stopping under these circumstances. The risk to their main activities would be to great to warrant giving out kill rights to every target.

Low sec doesn't need fewer people pvp'ing it needs more, and this is a recipe for to kill that.


** Edit: Perhaps I've answered my own question. " Performing an action against another player that gets you a Criminal flag will also award a kill-right " On a more careful reading, Criminal flag would only apply to High sec agression ? So a failed suicide gank would carry the consequence of dealing killrights, but low sec agression would fall under the new PvP/LE flag and kill rights would apply only if the target couldn't/didn't defend themselves ?

Seems the best option would simply be letting them take the first shot and retaliating accordingly. that way you get killrights and if all goes well a killmail at the end of the fight as well.

Okay, couple things.

ECM and ECM burst against a pod = who cares. Why would you get an upgraded flag from firing one off, to hitting a pod vs. a ship. It doesn't kill or damage, it just blocks them from targeting. ECM penalties are maybe necessary as it is 'technically' an aggressive module, but it has no bearing on a pod, (or even a shuttle), as it doesn't have weapons or modules. It just grants a lock to look function.

Wipe that penalty. Anything that does nothing to something and incurs a penalty is kind of rediculous.

Move ECM and EWAR, (with exception to Warp Disruption), to an assisting module rather than a weapons module. It is more like Logistics than weapons, and should be treated as such. Just because it is used, doesn't mean it is used with criminal intent or for aggressive purposes, just like logistics.

ECM and EWAR, (Not including Jamming or Disrupting Warp), are primarily passive-aggressive modules and function more in a defensive role than an attack role in my opinion. They should be treated as such.

Example of use:

Webbed targeted ship, no other players involved - Ship is webbed; it aligns faster. Helpful action, and not likely to be used before an attack as it gives the target the ability to escape faster. Still results in Weapons Flag, but no PvP flag.

Webbed Targeted ship, NPCs involved - Action causes ship to become vulnerable to NPC attacks; should be considered Criminal in Highsec or Suspect in Lowsec.

Webbed Targeted ship, players involved - Remote assistance penalties apply as you are aiding the attackers.

ECM can't be helpful, but aside from use to prevent a target defending itself, can't be considered particularly harmful either. Weapon Disruption also fall into this category.

Target Painting would fall into the webbing category, with the unique exception that it can be used to increase a targets sig for the purpose of logistics locking time reduction, which would result in assistance.

..anyway, whatever. I'm just thinking. I got Concorded once for dropping ECM, (only), on a Brutix that was ganking my friends Orca in a Wardec. I was in fleet I believe, but not in Corp at the time, and the action was a legal one under the Wardec system for the attacker, but I wasn't able to help without losing my ship. Kinda felt that was a bit extreme under the circumstances, and I'd like to see that changed.

I do understand that, but at the same time, that person could have used Neutral logistics without penalty if they thought they neded it. Old system, I know, but something to consider for the current one. Not all actions are black and white, and there should be some consideration for that.

Maybe something to save for a later iteration of Crimewatch, or maybe not. Up to you ultimately, and the players who read this of course.

Ultimately, I'd still drop a Scorp on a ship attacking a friends ship, even in a Wardec I wasn't part of, only next time I'd probably bring guns if the situation called for the same action. ..and a Web.

Yes. The only change they've mentioned so far is that they're separating the flags into coherent units rather than have everything fall under a single flag with tons of special rules and exceptions, and that the PvE flag actually has some effects (viz. making you stay in space). The rest is pretty much business as usual: you e-warp off if you can; after the timer runs out (if you're not a pile of debris at that point), the ship disappears.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAA!!!!!

TDG tears because they can't engage in thier riskless PvP anymore. Boo hoo hoo!

You can easily get pods in lowsec with these changes, just instead of a dictor, bring a smartbomb battleship.

My detailed take on these changes is on my blog, here.

Here's the TL;DR -

In my opinion, CCP has made a solid start, at least at the things I use regularly. I particularly am very happy with the changes to separate Suspect from Criminal in Lowsec (although I think further tweaks to gate guns are required to fully address the issue) I would like to see them do the following to polish it off before release:

1. Remove the eject lock, at least for T3s. Forcing people to stay in and lose skills is BS, and cuts off a great “steal the T3″ gameplay mechanic.
2. Reduce the Criminal timer to 5 minutes plus a full 15-minute Suspect timer after that.
3. Eliminate any affect to sec status below -2.0 (see Hans Jagerblitzen’s original election proposal) for triggering the Suspect timer. Only Criminal acts should drive you under -2.0.
4. Do not trigger Criminal flags unless the pod dies. Shooting it without killing keeps you at Suspect only.
5. Review neutral RR approach flagging approach to ensure loopholes are closed.

More on the eject lock in a separate reply.

I agree with Michael on this one (as noted above). Find a different way to prevent ship-scooping and bait-and-switch (use the PVP flag).

Not having the choice to bail out and leave capturable stuff rather than a killmail is bad. Choices are good.
Losing skillpoints by force rather than choice in a T3 is bad. Choices are good.
Skill loss will not become more common, T3 PVP pilots, especially Skill 5 pilots, will become less common. That's bad.

The weight here is on a ham-handed nerf to the ninja crowd, but cascades to many other Unforseen (Bad) Consequences.

some of the consequences in the charts just don't make any sense whatsoever.
in wormhole or nullsec space, there is NOTHING to stop you from doing whatever it is you want to do.
for example, when you're in a wormhole system or a nullsec system, after you destroyed someone else's ship, then you try to dock and change ship(even to one that's in a corp hangar) there's no sense in denying you this action since that hangar is owned by your corporation and so is the rest of the facility where this hangar is located. Also, there is no CONCORD personnel or CONCORD-piloted ships to be found anywhere near the facility that houses the corp hangar.
there's a reason why NPCs call it LAWLESS space - there are no laws at all.

Also, I've read that flags will override other flags which I did not quite understand and I'm left with the quetion of how will this work and if it's level-based, what are the level(s) for each flag?

and finally, this will cause a problem with 1v1 fights. in hisec space, 1v1 fights are started by one player stealing from the can of the other person with whom he agreed to a 1v1 fight. Retribution's crimewatch changes will make it so that anyone can interfere with these fights without CONCORD intervention which will ruin the whole fight - basically almost killing 1v1 fights completely. the only solution to that will be to have a spot in dead space ready for fights like this, which is something that not all people might have done prior to engaging eachother in direct combat.

No comments on this, CCP?