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Low Sec is beyond broken
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pyr8t
S0 L337 1T HURTS
#81 - 2012-10-03 18:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: pyr8t
Zero productive activity takes place in Low Sec. Everyone agrees you can't mine or conduct any industry, rat, or even mission without getting raped. The smart players learn this lesson only once; the risk is not worth it--and stay out. Permanently. So then, what or who is Low Sec for? The genetic make-up of Low Sec is now 90% pirates, 10% other. Low Sec is now basically just for pirates and no one else--soon, it will be only pirates.

It didn't used to always be like this.

There's nothing inherently wrong with pirating and no one is advocating eliminating this enormously fun gameplay, but at this stage of the game the major imbalance is harming an entire portion of the game. Players need increased opportunity and security assurances in low sec. For starters: There must be tangible consequences for players/pirates going negative. As I stated in my original post, gates should be unusable* and stations undockable* in systems corresponding to your negative status. The honest truth is being negative sec is hardly a big deal. The consequences are practically non-existant. And full on -10's should be locked out of Empire all together.

-10's should be forced to pick on targets their own size in 0.0 .... this is actually every pirates worst nightmare because (with exception to the few unique pirate corps who do 0.0 exclusively) the big secret here is they'll get their **** pushed-in in fairly short order. It's more fun being over powered in low sec.

Secondly, some sort of mini NPC Sovereign mechanic needs put in Low Sec, whereby if players/corps populate a system and upgrade it through some mechanic it buffs security of the system (buffing gate/station/NPC guns, possibly adding NPC concord protection, etc).

The point is to limit and restrict but not eliminate the piracy; to the point where productive activity can actually take place.
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#82 - 2012-10-03 18:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: dethleffs
WOooooaoaaaa.....

Of course, you just pulled the percentages just right out of your arse. Pirates need to carebear too, of course, and quite a few pirates carebear in losec (astounding, isn't it?). This alone voids the argument that there will be only pirates in losec in time (pirates defined as PVPers, carebaring pirates as targets).

I agree that pirates should be more limited in what they can do in hisec, it isn't their turf, and only under very very difficult cicumstances should they be able to pirate in hisec. But "undockable stations" and "unjumpable gates" is taking it far too far!

Then you say we suck. Which is of course not a proper way to discuss things. If you wanna go ad hominem to me/us - feel free, (i think your a worthless carebear -"pyr8t" - don't make me laugh), but saying we'll get our arse handed to us in 0.0 is laughable - do you think (except from bubbles losing implants more often) 0.0 is any different for us then losec? We can be attacked without sechits everywhere and killed and podded. Everywhere. We don't care if it's losec, 0.0 or highsec. We'll survive and beat your sorry asses, whereever you live.

The nice thing is: We manage. We live in losec. We don't need changes to make it safer. We PVP in losec. We carebear in losec. And we have good fun doing so.

The only thing you advocate is the highsec mentality of risk averse, easymode carebearing to losec. Go Away.


carebear.
Zhade Lezte
#83 - 2012-10-03 18:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
^ (at pyr8t)

Lowsec has

- Capital Ship Production & Retail (not supercaps). Pretty much the best place to actually assemble and sell those Thanatoses and such due to being close to highsec to import minerals.
- Moon Mining and Starbase Reactions much like 0.0
- A respectable amount of extraction PI
- All those damn FW LPs producing that faction gear for your highsec mission running boat. To be nerfed in winter, but it should still be worth doing for those who like FW.
- exploration

I mean sure mining followed by production won't really happen in significant amounts in lowsec, especially when mining & industry in general is just so much better in highsec.


Lowsec is what it is, a middle ground between security being provided entirely by NPCs (CONCORD), and security being provided entirely by player interactions (0.0), whether that be diplomacy between groups or bubbles or intel channels.

Unlike nullsec you are pretty close to 100% safe with an improved cloak + MWD boat jumping from gate to gate with a respectable buffer. Pirates in pimpboats can sensor boost themselves for instant lock but the fact that they can't field frigates (they'll be shredded by gate guns) leaves them less able to rapidly decloak someone. Stations are also similarly safer. Plus people being penalized access to highsec if they kill in lowsec from sec status makes it softly safer, though pirates choose to accept these consequences and many will take a sec hit for a worthy target. Also you don't have the risk of having all your sov taken and your assets locked in station: the only assets of yours on the line are those in the ship and capsule you're flying.


If CCP wants to buff lowsec economically to encourage people to go there that's one thing but making its security more like nullsec or less like highsec (or the other way around) makes me think that you're kind of missing the damn point of the sandbox that is eve online.
pyr8t
S0 L337 1T HURTS
#84 - 2012-10-03 19:16:29 UTC
Since when did pointing out facts suddenly become ad homonym attacks? It's a fact that the vast majority of pirates prefer High Sec/Low Sec because they can abuse the rules and stay over powered whereas in 0.0 the deck is even (if not stacked the other way). I personally prefer it when the deck is stacked in my favor, and as a pirate in Empire that is exactly how it is. I make no secret of that fact. Whereas in 0.0 I'm playing against people of my skill level if not higher--there goes one advantage. Pirating in 0.0 Sec is also a gigantic headache because once I'm killed, buying a new ship is a pain in the ass. That, and where do I dock? I can dock anywhere in Empire, even high sec. Even if i'm negative 10,000 it makes no difference.

Stop pretending like your offended that pirating in 0.0 is not vastly more difficult and that you don't want to be there; that you prefer being over powered in Empire. Where are you currently located? I bet you any amount of ISK it's Empire. Thanks for making my point.

Low Sec is not a middle ground between High Sec and Null, at least not as it's intended to be. It's more dangerous than Null and even less can be done there. Capital Ship Production is another story entirely, and I bet that most capital ship producing corps in Low Sec are simply arms of Null sec alliances. Which is a different thing entirely.

Low Sec is beyond broken.
Zhade Lezte
#85 - 2012-10-03 22:05:20 UTC
If implying you are a hisec mission runner makes the entirety of my post an ad hominem attack in your eyes then you've got personal problems to work that are much more important than the state of lowsec.

And Lol if the "I bet you live in empire" comment was directed at me.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#86 - 2012-10-03 23:22:40 UTC
Besides PI, Low sec is indeed USELESS to the Industrialist. A cesspool of lazy (gate and station camping) pirates.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Selinate
#87 - 2012-10-03 23:53:03 UTC
Low sec is working fine. I live in it. I enjoy it.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#88 - 2012-10-03 23:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
INB4 "You're doing it wrong"?

You're doing it wrong. Lowsec could be one of the most profitable areas of space, excluding Faction Warfare influences. All you need to do is set up in a Constellation with a small Alliance, lock it down, and take over. Put up your POS, do your Moon mining, Guard your gates, and Mine the Ore. Run production, do whatever.

You'd need a good size Alliance with 3 or 4 member corps having each 30-60 members, but it can be done.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#89 - 2012-10-04 10:38:13 UTC
dethleffs wrote:
I agree that pirates should be more limited in what they can do in hisec, it isn't their turf, and only under very very difficult cicumstances should they be able to pirate in hisec. But "undockable stations" and "unjumpable gates" is taking it far too far!

We don't care if it's losec, 0.0 or highsec. We'll survive and beat your sorry asses, whereever you live.

The only thing you advocate is the highsec mentality of risk averse, easymode carebearing to losec. Go Away.



Sounds like someone just wants a line in the sandbox, drawn at every Low Sec entry gate.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Borisk Zeltsh
Alcohlics Anonymous
#90 - 2012-10-04 11:05:52 UTC
all this talk of industrials and losec

as someone who has lived in losec sec for many years i can tell you that most lo-sec dwellers couldnt give to hoots about industy in losec we use it for pvp be that ganking gate camping or straight up fights with other losec pvpers

just becouse someone is -10 doesnt mean they are pirate actualy pirate is bull **** tearm all are just pvpers except you get sec hit for starting fight in losec

as for industry most corps in lo-sec will have hisec base of industry b it at corp lvl or individuial lvl there is no point mineing in losec you cant lock down system with bubbles and highsec ore beat all other so anyone who try mine lo-sec is just stupid or ignorant

we dont want lo-sec all fuzzy and warm like blob/blue 0.0
we dont want lo-sec all fuzzy like hisec
we like losec for what it is the wild west were the gun makes the law

ppl who say its a wast land its dead are crazy same as anywere els in eve some places are teaming with life some are alot quiter just like 0.0

as for lo-sec beeing full of gankers lol

recantly i moved back to my old home in lo-sec afta small campain afta 3 days a new corp moved into the area we had a few skirmishes nothing big i chased them they chased me couople small fights then we go ttalking now we have a agreement i dont mess with what they do they dont mess with what i do but weve also started hlping each other

so you see lo-sec is actualy awsome place if you just put effort in
instead crying bah bah its dangaras try maning up and haveing a crack

losec best sec stop crying man up pansys
Christ Illusion
Atrocity Vendors
#91 - 2012-10-04 11:11:16 UTC
pyr8t wrote:
Once you get -10, you're locked out of all Empire (low/high sec) and pushed out to 0.0.


and what can I do in 0.0? flying around in empty systems until I get into a carebearblob? Big smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-10-04 13:05:38 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Casirio wrote:
Your idea that Eve needs to be even and fair is just not reality.


The fact that CCP felt compelled to stiffen the penalties for criminal behavior in the winter expansion means that CCP agrees that things need to change. I think the new bounty system will be a failure as every other MMO bounty system has failed (it'll never work in a game that allows alts), but at least it shows that they understand that there's a problem.

The point isn't about "fair". EVE isn't fair, and isn't supposed to be fair. But it should be balanced, and right now criminal behavior is very unbalanced because there's little downside to it other than the loss of a ship to CONCORD in high sec. I've said elsewhere: if you really want to punish criminals, prevent them from docking anywhere in high sec until they get a sec status above -1. Forget the gate guns and faciton navies; just lock them out of all the NPC stations until their status improves.





LOL

Ever heard of a neutral alt?
F'elch
Wall Street Trading
#93 - 2012-10-04 13:25:31 UTC
Low-sec is fine. leave it alone.
eddie valvetino
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#94 - 2012-10-04 13:42:50 UTC
I started to read this thread with some interest.

Being a said "low sec pirate" myself. The first couple of paragraphs indeed seemed to have a solid and logical arguement.

But then as always it decended into yet another "I can't do something, CCP needs to change the game for me"

You're right about 0.0 and mining there, It seems that it is easier to mine in 0.0 due to the blue sheilds, well that is the way YOU made 0.0. Personally, I'd love to hunt miners there, but it seems alot of 0.0 is safer than high sec (ganked many miners in 0.5 to 1.0 and next to none in 0.4 to 0.0)

There is then then issue of size, 0.0 is MUCH larger than low sec and high sec is also much larger. Why should I not be allowed in space cos you can't make it pay. I make it pay. My corp mates make it pay. No doubt we could also make high sec and 0.0 pay too.

There is nothing broken about lowsec, it is I think about the only place you can get a fight with less than a gang of 100.

Anyway, My point is this... as you seem to think 0.0 and high sec are better for you and that low sec is broken cos you can't work it...

(can you guess what's coming next?)

Why don't you **** off there and annoy them with you pointless and mindless whining?
Borisk Zeltsh
Alcohlics Anonymous
#95 - 2012-10-04 13:44:03 UTC
pyr8t wrote:


-10's should be forced to pick on targets their own size in 0.0 .... this is actually every pirates worst nightmare because (with exception to the few unique pirate corps who do 0.0 exclusively) the big secret here is they'll get their **** pushed-in in fairly short order. It's more fun being over powered in low sec.





this shows you have no clue

FORCE ppl to move into new area yea when you pay my subscription maybe

you think that the best pvp is 0.0 lmfao again you haven no clue

i have flown with blob 0.0 allainces i have flown with roaming 0.0 corps that live in npc 0.0 i have flown with lo-sec pvper and my personal experiance lo-sec is alot better the blobs are smaller the blue list is alot smaller if non exsitant the small roams are alot better we know were each other live and dont have to wait 2 hours for 200 man fleet to form up and go fight


we pirates as you call us fight mainly each other only the odd industrial gets kills or newer player becouse they dont know what they are doing afta they get killed once they soon learn

so again i say you have no clue
eddie valvetino
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#96 - 2012-10-04 13:47:38 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Casirio wrote:
Your idea that Eve needs to be even and fair is just not reality.


The fact that CCP felt compelled to stiffen the penalties for criminal behavior in the winter expansion means that CCP agrees that things need to change. I think the new bounty system will be a failure as every other MMO bounty system has failed (it'll never work in a game that allows alts), but at least it shows that they understand that there's a problem.



So wrong

a. The changes did bugger all, other than shutting up whining bears
b. You're wrong... CCP didn't and doesn't agree that pirates are bad, the changes were made to firstly help newer players (a good thing) and secondly because people like you moan till CCP cries.
Tetsel
House Amamake
#97 - 2012-10-04 13:54:37 UTC
pyr8t wrote:
Since when did pointing out facts suddenly become ad homonym attacks? It's a fact that the vast majority of pirates prefer High Sec/Low Sec because they can abuse the rules and stay over powered whereas in 0.0 the deck is even (if not stacked the other way). I personally prefer it when the deck is stacked in my favor, and as a pirate in Empire that is exactly how it is. I make no secret of that fact. Whereas in 0.0 I'm playing against people of my skill level if not higher--there goes one advantage. Pirating in 0.0 Sec is also a gigantic headache because once I'm killed, buying a new ship is a pain in the ass. That, and where do I dock? I can dock anywhere in Empire, even high sec. Even if i'm negative 10,000 it makes no difference.

Stop pretending like your offended that pirating in 0.0 is not vastly more difficult and that you don't want to be there; that you prefer being over powered in Empire. Where are you currently located? I bet you any amount of ISK it's Empire. Thanks for making my point.

Low Sec is not a middle ground between High Sec and Null, at least not as it's intended to be. It's more dangerous than Null and even less can be done there. Capital Ship Production is another story entirely, and I bet that most capital ship producing corps in Low Sec are simply arms of Null sec alliances. Which is a different thing entirely.

Low Sec is beyond broken.





How am I supposed to get a bad SS if pirating in 0.0 ? There is no SS penalties on randomly killing "innocent" people...
It's all about the -10 baby ! Pirate

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#98 - 2012-10-04 14:05:42 UTC
Once again, discussion between people who have a clue and have actually been to lowsec, and hisec NPC corp bears who've only been told fairy tales in the wonderful noob corp chat.

Risk is the reward.

I'd be living in low if there weren't wormholes, it's the bees knees and I go there several times a week to have fun. Either looking for trouble or treasures. And those ebil piwats make my treasure hunting trips worthwhile.





.
Jim Hazard
Fury Industry
#99 - 2012-10-04 14:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jim Hazard
Idris Helion wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
I love it when griefers try to justify what they do by saying that they only grief other players on honorable terms. It's pretty hilarious.
You're a pretty angry little bear aren't you? Understandable with all those feelings of impotence and unfulfilled rage floating around in your head. Tragic. Maybe you should try becoming a pirate and letting it all out? Y'know, get actual perspective from the other side,rather than just the odd little hate-filled fantasies you dream up.


It's not hard to understand the griefer's mindset, chum. You get your jollies from popping players weaker than you are. It's not complicated.

It's the asinine self-justification that EVE pirates have that irritates me. In any other game, you and your ilk would have been banned long since. Bleating that "it's a valid play-style" is just putting a layer of frosting on your jack-assery. If you were truly interested in the mythical ~GoodFights~, you'd be mixing it up with other combat ships and contesting systems in fleets, not killing T1 frigs, indys, barges.

But whatev's. I get my revenge on pirates by taking their money in the markets. Every time you buy ammo or fittings, think of me -- you're putting ISK in my pocket.


Posts like this just show that you do not even understand the profession of piracy. If you are a pirate of course you do not just PvP for good fights. If you are a good pirate you can actually make profit from your profession and do not need PvE alts to support your lifestyle. If your intention is not making money from killing people you just can not call yourself a pirate.

Also your mindset that people with -10 sec status can easily float through high sec is totally wrong. They are outlaws.. they can be shot by anyone. If an outlaw can freely roam through high sec its the fault of the players who live there. You can always fit up an instalocking tackler to hold pirates on the gates and shoot them down with the help of the faction police or other players, but of course that would be too much effort for most people who live there. It´s a lot easier for those people to go to the forums and whine about it.

edit: the same goes for low sec being sooooooo dangerous. It totally is possible to secure some low sec space and make more money there than in high sec. You just need to get organized.. nothings stops you from securing a low sec constellation together with some other people or get in touch with mercs and pay them to do it for you. If you want a mechanic to hire concord to do that it just shows that you are unable to communicate with other players to get your protection you are asking for.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-10-04 14:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Shooting other players is not criminal activity in low sec, it is supposed to happen inherently by the definition of the space security level and is supposed to provide semi-painful penalties to those who do shoot things without permission. However, low sec is supposed to be the breeding ground for new PvPers, not the carebear land where you might get shot once in 20 jumps. It's not supposed to be industrially favourable, mining in low sec should not happen at the static belts, it should have a different structure built around it (at cosmic sigs more often perhaps), and that is about all. Industry in low sec is not industry in high sec. You aren't going to see people running L4s in lowsec ever because that's not what it is meant for. You aren't going to see haulers safely trolling through highsec->lowsec transfers ever because industrials aren't meant to travel into lowsec, blockade runner transports are.

It has its own set of gameplay niches and crying about why highsec activities don't transfer to lowsec does not make any sense.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us