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[Winter] New destroyers

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Stephen O'Malley
Southern Lord Industries
#981 - 2012-11-06 21:24:18 UTC
This just in, Destroyers doing less damage with small weapons then cruisers with larger ones!

More news at 10.


I see no problem with this. A Caracal fit to murder frigs will do just that, and probably cost at least double what the destroyer will.
The point on speed may be valid, but beyond that I'm not so sure. I don't think any other dessies cam fit a full rack of the largest long range weapons w/o fitting mods (admitted, missile users can't go with smaller launchers).

I wod think the rockets should fit without too much difficulty though, that does surprise me. I haven't looked at numbers at all though.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#982 - 2012-11-06 21:25:36 UTC
I'm a bit confused. The Caracal is a bigger ship (cruiser), and uses Heavy missiles besides, does it not? I am guessing it should offer more dps and more tank.

as for speed, well im not sure what to say there. The new destroyers seem to be slow for some reason that I can not figure out.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#983 - 2012-11-06 21:32:05 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The Caracal is a bigger ship (cruiser), and uses Heavy missiles besides, does it not?
His example showed the Caracal using light missiles, same as the destroyer.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#984 - 2012-11-06 21:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The Caracal is a bigger ship (cruiser), and uses Heavy missiles besides, does it not?
His example showed the Caracal using light missiles, same as the destroyer.



You are correct, with better launchers, and more ballistic control systems. As noted above, it is a larger ship. It would not be hard for it to downsize weapons and still fit better due to slots. I am guessing a Drake would do better yet with light missile systems. The point stands. Don't most cruisers out dps the equivalent weapon system base type dessies?

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#985 - 2012-11-06 21:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The Caracal is a bigger ship (cruiser), and uses Heavy missiles besides, does it not?
His example showed the Caracal using light missiles, same as the destroyer.



You are correct, with better launchers, and more ballistic control systems. As noted above, it is a larger ship. It would not be hard for it to downsize weapons and still fit better due to slots. I am guessing a Drake would do better yet with light missile systems. The point stands. Don't most cruisers out dps the equivalent weapon system base type dessies?

Yeah, but most cruisers dont have frigate/destroyer sized guns that deal more DPS than frigate sized guns, but with equal tracking. And don't forget then difference in tank and speed either.

What I'd like to see is the Caracal as a heavy destroyer. Up the speed of current destroyers substantially. Make the Caracal a larger, slower ship with a lot more tank and about 10% less DPS. Then there's reason to use both. Not just pick the Caracal.

Edited for derp.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#986 - 2012-11-06 21:54:44 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The Caracal is a bigger ship (cruiser), and uses Heavy missiles besides, does it not?
His example showed the Caracal using light missiles, same as the destroyer.



You are correct, with better launchers, and more ballistic control systems. As noted above, it is a larger ship. It would not be hard for it to downsize weapons and still fit better due to slots. I am guessing a Drake would do better yet with light missile systems. The point stands. Don't most cruisers out dps the equivalent weapon system base type dessies?

Yeah, but most cruisers dont have frigate/destroyer sized guns that deal more DPS than frigate sized guns, but with equal tracking. And don't forget then difference in tank and speed either.

What I'd like to see is the Caracal as a heavy destroyer. Up the speed of current destroyers substantially. Make the Caracal a larger, slower ship with a lot more tank and about 10% less DPS. Then there's reason to use both. Not just pick the Caracal.

Edited for derp.


Mixed feelings on the dps, but agree whole heartedly on the speed. Dessies are supposed to be faster than cruisers, no doubt. I have no idea why they are making the new ones so slow.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#987 - 2012-11-06 22:19:57 UTC
The missile boats came pre-nerfed. They definitely need a bigger fitting grid. The new Caldari destroyer gets the equivalent of a missile tracking bonus though. It's going to apply a lot more of its damage to frigates attempting to signature tank then the Caracal will. Also, two shield extender rigs are silly. Put two Overclock processors on it instead and put some ewar in those two empty mid slots.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#988 - 2012-11-06 22:40:01 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The missile boats came pre-nerfed. They definitely need a bigger fitting grid. The new Caldari destroyer gets the equivalent of a missile tracking bonus though. It's going to apply a lot more of its damage to frigates attempting to signature tank then the Caracal will. Also, two shield extender rigs are silly. Put two Overclock processors on it instead and put some ewar in those two empty mid slots.

Actually, there isn't even enough grid to put on 2 more EWar modules. You have about 1.5 spare grid with the implants. You'd need to get another PG implant in slot 6 to fit the last slot.

I don't see why the fitting should be so gimped, even for long range. At the very least, come up with inferior launchers that have shorter range and less DPS by about 15% or something that are easier on fitting so you can fit a long range platform without using all 3 rigs for fitting, and still needing 3 fitting implants.

If I want to fit a gun Dessy for long range, I can downsize the guns at least, so as to avoid gimping the fit with fitting mods and forcing me to buy implants. That should be an optional thing that you can do to upsize the guns or something. Not a requirement to even fit the ship.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#989 - 2012-11-06 23:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
It will fit a meta TP and TD. (16 + 32)

Edit: don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating the current fitting grid- but if released as is? That is how I'll fit it.
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#990 - 2012-11-06 23:26:21 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Why do the Gal and Amarr hulls have 1 less fitting point then Cal or Mimmy.

Edit: I would also change the Kin bonus on the Caldari ship to a ROF as it goes more in line with the other ships you blananced.


because caldari and min don't have drone bays.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#991 - 2012-11-06 23:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
Where are you Ytterbium? Its a been a month and we have yet to hear from you after the test server feedback given.

There is less than a month left before Retribution comes out, the sooner we can get this sorted the better.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#992 - 2012-11-06 23:28:40 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It will fit a meta TP and TD. (16 + 32)

Edit: don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating the current fitting grid- but if released as is? That is how I'll fit it.

Yeah, but you need another 1% PG rig to fit that. Not expensive, but now I've got all 3 rigs and 3 implants just to fit the thing.
androch
LitlCorp
#993 - 2012-11-06 23:35:05 UTC
please... pull the non matching parts off the caldari destroyer and make them even...
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#994 - 2012-11-06 23:38:49 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Where are you Ytterbium? Its a been a month and we have yet to hear from you after the test server feedback given.

There is less than a month left before Retribution comes out, the sooner we can get this sorted the better.


I'm here, been busy, I'll read through this thread tomorrow if I have time.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#995 - 2012-11-07 00:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Where are you Ytterbium? Its a been a month and we have yet to hear from you after the test server feedback given.

There is less than a month left before Retribution comes out, the sooner we can get this sorted the better.


I'm here, been busy, I'll read through this thread tomorrow if I have time.


please say the corax and the talvat (is that the name?) are getting fitting increased...or that light missiles are being reduced in fitting even more, because they both can't even fit any sort of tank with 7 light missiles on them. All the other ones you can set up for long range and get at least one tanking mod on there (like a 75mm kite cormorant can fit a medium extender with essentially no fitting mods). These ones should at least be able to get a medium extender or one medium ancillary booster on the ship with MWD+light missiles, and without devoting your whole rigs to fitting.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#996 - 2012-11-07 00:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Where are you Ytterbium? Its a been a month and we have yet to hear from you after the test server feedback given.

There is less than a month left before Retribution comes out, the sooner we can get this sorted the better.


I'm here, been busy, I'll read through this thread tomorrow if I have time.


please say the corax and the talvat (is that the name?) are getting fitting increased...or that light missiles are being reduced in fitting even more, because they both can't even fit any sort of tank with 7 light missiles on them. All the other ones you can set up for long range and get at least one tanking mod on there (like a 75mm kite cormorant can fit a medium extender with essentially no fitting mods). These ones should at least be able to get a medium extender or one medium ancillary booster on the ship with MWD+light missiles, and without devoting your whole rigs to fitting.


Yeah, but look at the DPS on that 75mm Cormorant at 60km. Its got more damage, probably shouldn't get too much tank.

But I do think you should be able to fit the ship at least without fitting rigs and implants.

Bah, phone typing.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#997 - 2012-11-07 02:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Don't most cruisers out dps the equivalent weapon system base type dessies?

No, they don't. Destroyers will outgun cruisers with ease, because cruisers never fit more than 5 bonused weapons or 4 bonused and 2 unbonused. The current destroyers can always fit 8 weapons, with at least 7 bonused.

Tier 1 and 2 battlecruisers actually barely outgun destroyers for the most part (not counting drones), because they're usually stuck with the equivalent of 7 weapons.

Cruiser weapons typically deal 1/3rd more DPS than their frigate counterparts. Thus, you can calculate a weapon slot as having a base power of 1, increased by 25% for each skill bonus applied to the weapon (assuming maxed skills)(all weapon bonuses, because they all affect your ability to apply the hurt), and 1/3rd increase for cruisers:

(not counting the range role bonus for destroyers, also not counting drones)
Coercer: 12.5
Cormorant: 11.9375
Catalyst: 12.5
Thrasher: 11.9375

Maller: 8.3333
Omen: 10.4167
Caracal: 10.4167
Moa: 9.6667
Thorax: 8.3333
Vexor: 6.6667
Rupture: 11
Stabber: 9.3333

Prophecy: 11.3333
Harbinger: 14.5833
Ferox: 11.3333
Drake: 11.6667
Brutix: 11.6667
Myrmidon: 8
Cyclone: 12.3333
Hurricane: 15.1667
These numbers should give a fairly accurate representation of each ship's raw offensive potential before drones. Actual DPS values will vary significantly due to differing weapon types and ranges, and because many of the weapon skill bonuses are not damage or rate of fire bonuses.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#998 - 2012-11-07 02:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
(like a 75mm kite cormorant can fit a medium extender with essentially no fitting mods).

75mm railguns are laughably ineffective, similar to quad light beams. There's a reason they cost only 2 MW of powergrid (or 90 MW, in the case of the quad light beams). When you absolutely need to cut powergrid away from your guns to fit something else along with them, these are the weapons you put on your ship. Most offense-oriented ships will spend a good chunk of their powergrid just on the weapons. If your basic buffer defense costs you more than half of what the ship has, it's not the weapons that cost too much.

I'd say the Cormorant needs more powergrid, and I remember hearing something about it being increased a bunch. Also, if they decrease the powergrid cost of light missiles, they should also decrease the cost of 125mm railguns. But I think they're fine where they are. On the other hand, I think the 200mm autocannons should cost 5 MW instead of 4. The Thrasher just has too much powergrid left over after fitting a full rack of top guns.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#999 - 2012-11-07 05:49:58 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
[quote=CCP Ytterbium](like a 75mm kite cormorant can fit a medium extender with essentially no fitting mods).

75mm railguns are laughably ineffective, similar to quad light beams. There's a reason they cost only 2 MW of powergrid (or 90 MW, in the case of the quad light beams). When you absolutely need to cut powergrid away from your guns to fit something else along with them, these are the weapons you put on your ship. Most offense-oriented ships will spend a good chunk of their powergrid just on the weapons. If your basic buffer defense costs you more than half of what the ship has, it's not the weapons that cost too much.

I'd say the Cormorant needs more powergrid, and I remember hearing something about it being increased a bunch. Also, if they decrease the powergrid cost of light missiles, they should also decrease the cost of 125mm railguns. But I think they're fine where they are. On the other hand, I think the 200mm autocannons should cost 5 MW instead of 4. The Thrasher just has too much powergrid left over after fitting a full rack of top guns.


Last time I checked, 75mm rails doing 150dps at 30km with spike is pretty damn good, especially when you can fit MWD, disruptor, and medium extender with two mag stabs. You can always switch to closer range ammo and get around 250 dps. That's fine with me.

Just wish the destroyers weren't slower than cruisers using an MWD, the fact that some of them are is just pathetic (my caracal on duality was going 600m/s faster than my corax -the new caldari destroyer-)

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#1000 - 2012-11-07 13:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gangname Style
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

Last time I checked, 75mm rails doing 150dps at 30km with spike is pretty damn good, especially when you can fit MWD, disruptor, and medium extender with two mag stabs. You can always switch to closer range ammo and get around 250 dps. That's fine with me.

Just wish the destroyers weren't slower than cruisers using an MWD, the fact that some of them are is just pathetic (my caracal on duality was going 600m/s faster than my corax -the new caldari destroyer-)


Yeah that is stupid. Smaller class ships should be faster than bigger ones.

Also: Please no gimped fit destroyers. I want to actually want to fly these new ships.