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[Winter] New destroyers

First post
Author
Nike Andedare
Diamond Command
#561 - 2012-10-05 01:10:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update!



Gallente:
  • Drone bandwidth increased to 35m3
  • Drone bay increased to 60m3
  • Turret number increased from 4 to 5
  • 5% hybrid turret damage bonus per level changed for 10% hybrid turret tracking bonus per level
  • Role bonus changed from 50% hybrid turret optimal range to 25% MWD speed to drones

  • Why is the Amarr hull better at drone management than the Gallente one?
  • That was a good point that should now be fixed. The drone bay will however stay larger on the Amarr hull as it is a trait currently encountered in Amarr versus Gallente drone ships.

  • Isn't a 25% MWD drone bonus break drones trying to catch static targets?
  • CCP Fozzie made me run some tests at gunpoint, 25% seems to be okay.

  • What's the point of the Catalyst next to the new Gallente hull?
  • We're planning some changes for it - keep an eye for them in the next days on this thread.


    Here's what I think...

    Please for the sake of not mixing drone groups, stick to 25 bandwidth. As stated before by several people this should be seen as a anti-frig drone boat. Lose whatever turret damage needed to make the drones the main source.

    Gallente have drone and hybrid as their damage types, and as nice as the set-up is, it sends mixed messages. You want all the new frigates and cruisers to have a primary source of damage with either a role bonus or ship bonus to complement them and then a secondary damage if you see fit; This hull does not feel like the next in line for someone who will skill up from a Tristan, to a Kharon (or Apiary, are my ideas for a name), to a Vexor, to a Myrmidon, to a Dominix. Sure it does do nice numbers as some have shown before me, but its a style of drone combat that this ship should put out with tackle, in my opinion. Not to mention putting medium drones in an anti-frigate destroyer seems not only silly, but I have never seen a purpose to mixing drone sizes, not to mention the idea just feels bad and weird and not something that you will practice with literally any other drone hull. Either allow for a full complement of a certain drone size or just one for Ewar purposes, thus for this ship five smalls is great.

    I don't know much about the other racial hulls but, I see a philosophy that you want (in general) to implement an idea to have hulls with have a primary weapon set that should be skilled up with it and a secondary to allow for use of the other same size hulls without much devotion to the second weapon type's skills and either a shield or armor tank. Looking from the other side and having all max skills, I still believe that drone damage should be the focus of this hull to follow the niche allowing for a line of hybrid and drone ships all the way up to battleship class. Besides let the Catalyst have the hybrid fun!

    (And just cause this is my opinion might as well tell you what I am thinking when it comes to racial primary/secondary weapons - Gallente have drone/hybrid, Caldari have missile/hybrid, Amarr have laser/drone, and Minmatar have projectile/ missle. Now obviously there are Amarr drone ships, and Gallente and Caldari both have some amazing hybrid ships, and Minmatar... well they do good projectile with no real missile ships but that's okay some drone bays too.)

    Sure it's more about a style of play or trying to follow some sort of EVE lore about weaponry/ideology, but at least I posted my points and ideas. And that's what I think.
    Blastil
    Aideron Robotics
    Aideron Robotics.
    #562 - 2012-10-05 02:55:08 UTC
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    Blastil wrote:
    my only comment is visual: does the Minmatar destroyer HAVE to look like a forklift had an inappropriate affair with a solar-panel factory?


    Because ductape and rusty buckets say so :P


    Why not just render a rusty bucket with a hole in it ducktaped over? It might look better tbh...
    Tragedy
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #563 - 2012-10-05 03:03:46 UTC
    Bah. You give us the fifth turret on the gallente ship and then take away the damage bonus. We were better off with two utility highs, tracking for small hybrids is already great.

    I feel like charle brown after that ***** yanks the football away when he tries to kick it.
    PinkKnife
    The Cuddlefish
    Ethereal Dawn
    #564 - 2012-10-05 03:09:43 UTC
    The problem with not having hybrids bonused is then you get 5 autocannon turret drone machines that blap everything.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #565 - 2012-10-05 03:25:54 UTC
    PinkKnife wrote:
    The problem with not having hybrids bonused is then you get 5 autocannon turret drone machines that blap everything.

    But is that bonus enough to make you say to your self "yes hybrid turrets will be better than autocannons due to the tracking bonus". As was stated small turrets track quite well, and this bonus seems to be a you MUST give it a hybrid bonus otherwise it wont be gallente.
    i still say drop hybrid bonuses and make it a dedicated drone ship, lower the number of turret hardpoints to 2 or 3 and give it like a drone optimun range bonus or a tracking bonus.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Hidden Snake
    Inglorious-Basterds
    #566 - 2012-10-05 05:47:29 UTC
    More I read, more I see these new dessies should be t2. They totally pawn most of the AF or EAF either in role in gang or in 1v1.

    Even now is fight of some dessies against the AFs tricky fr AFs (it is more or less question of skills, fit and experience).

    Same pattern as in cruiser world happening here ..... CCP comes with new ship T1 class or boosts the old one T1> omg t2is useless > tears > some strange boost to t2.

    Are the skilled players no more interesting for CCP?
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #567 - 2012-10-05 09:06:41 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!

    [list]
    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones
  • Still no incentive here to fit lasers in the turret slots.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)

    Cerulean Ice
    Royal Amarr Reclamation
    #568 - 2012-10-05 09:17:35 UTC
    snow plow attached to brick... http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/236986/_original

    My eyes X_X

    Why can't the minmatar dessy look as awesome as the caldari and gallente dessies? :(
    Hidden Snake
    Inglorious-Basterds
    #569 - 2012-10-05 09:18:36 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!

    [list]
    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones
  • Still no incentive here to fit lasers in the turret slots.



    still the minicurse/pilgrim will be tough nut .... in general i really like it.... with drone damage amplifiers and speed drone bonus it will eat frigs like nothing.
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #570 - 2012-10-05 09:20:02 UTC
    Hidden Snake wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!

    [list]
    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones
  • Still no incentive here to fit lasers in the turret slots.



    still the minicurse/pilgrim will be tough nut .... in general i really like it.... with drone damage amplifiers and speed drone bonus it will eat frigs like nothing.

    If it can hit the frigs after the speed bonus, sure.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)

    Hidden Snake
    Inglorious-Basterds
    #571 - 2012-10-05 09:20:03 UTC
    Cerulean Ice wrote:
    snow plow attached to brick... http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/236986/_original

    My eyes X_X

    Why can't the minmatar dessy look as awesome as the caldari and gallente dessies? :(



    well... associations may vary .... for me it looks like something from some special sexshop....
    Alticus C Bear
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #572 - 2012-10-05 09:47:06 UTC
    Hidden Snake wrote:
    More I read, more I see these new dessies should be t2. They totally pawn most of the AF or EAF either in role in gang or in 1v1.

    Even now is fight of some dessies against the AFs tricky fr AFs (it is more or less question of skills, fit and experience).

    Same pattern as in cruiser world happening here ..... CCP comes with new ship T1 class or boosts the old one T1> omg t2is useless > tears > some strange boost to t2.

    Are the skilled players no more interesting for CCP?


    Maybe they intend to continue ahead with the FW plex size changes. With a T1 frig only plex and a plex for T2 frigs and destroyers the destroyers will need to compete with assault ships.
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #573 - 2012-10-05 10:16:10 UTC
    If bandwidth is reduced and dronebay enlarge, then the gallente destroyer will only be a bad amarr destroyer. These cries are completely silly.

    Moreover, with the MWD bonus, valkyries will be able to chase and hit MWDing frigates. Even without valks, you can easily hit any destroyer with medium drones, and cruisers.

    And the tracking bonus mean railguns : 75mm with javelin would kill everything even in close orbit ; 125mm would kill any kiting frigate with ease.

    Leave the gallente destroyer alone, and don't turn it into a bad amarr destroyer please. To the pve nerds, go skill amarr and leave the gallente with their fighters alone. As someone said, a destroyer would never survive 3 flights of its drones anyway.
    The VC's
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #574 - 2012-10-05 12:45:32 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!

    [list]
    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones
  • Still no incentive here to fit lasers in the turret slots.


    Fitting lasers on it would be like fitting HAM's on a Curse. You can, by why would you in normal circumstances.

    I'd rather have the 3.6 medium neut equiv. and super fast hobgoblins.Twisted
    Hidden Snake
    Inglorious-Basterds
    #575 - 2012-10-05 12:46:57 UTC
    Alticus C Bear wrote:
    Hidden Snake wrote:
    More I read, more I see these new dessies should be t2. They totally pawn most of the AF or EAF either in role in gang or in 1v1.

    Even now is fight of some dessies against the AFs tricky fr AFs (it is more or less question of skills, fit and experience).

    Same pattern as in cruiser world happening here ..... CCP comes with new ship T1 class or boosts the old one T1> omg t2is useless > tears > some strange boost to t2.

    Are the skilled players no more interesting for CCP?


    Maybe they intend to continue ahead with the FW plex size changes. With a T1 frig only plex and a plex for T2 frigs and destroyers the destroyers will need to compete with assault ships.



    Well eve is not only about FW (yuck .... sounds silly from me) ....
    Renier Gaden
    Immortal Guides
    #576 - 2012-10-05 12:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Renier Gaden
    Cerulean Ice wrote:
    snow plow attached to brick... http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/236986/_original

    My eyes X_X

    Why can't the minmatar dessy look as awesome as the caldari and gallente dessies? :(


    More like a Snowplow attached to a tank. It looks like it was designed to fit 1 large projectile turret, but the barrel is missing.


    Edit: Actually I would be ok with it if they added some thrusters to make it look more maneuverable. How does this thing turn? The primary thrusters on the back end are too close together for its length to turn it quickly. It needs some small auxiliary thruster pods on that box shaped thingy on the side half way between the lead most hard point and the solar panels.
    Lavitakus Bromier
    WTF Bunnies
    #577 - 2012-10-05 15:46:27 UTC
    Jack bubu wrote:
    Lavitakus Bromier wrote:
    Ya 2 mids on amarr kills it. It does less damage and has no ability to catch anything. You can either out run it or warp away from it. That was a main issue with coer.

    try running away with no cap.


    I chose death
    CheekyBabey
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #578 - 2012-10-05 16:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CheekyBabey
    Ark Anhammar wrote:

    I didn't have the luxury of playing when drones could be controlled more than 5 at a time, but seeing the "15 drone death machine" got me thinking:

    I wonder if awarding Gallente ships with the ability to control more than 5 drones would be worthwhile to give Gallente drone ships some much needed flavor and love? Hear me out, and these bonuses would only apply to the strict drone boats (Tristan, New Dessie, Vexor, Myrm, and Domi):

    *snip* excellent other points but wont happen :(


    The drone amounts were reduced on all ships to reduce lag and limited to a max of 5 with the drones use amounts being turned into bonuses for HP and damage (to represent the lost drones) the exception to this rule is the rare guardian vexor and carriers/supercarriers which still get a control bonus (I think).

    So I don't see this ever coming back on any ships sadly, specially with the new mods and rigs.

    The problem is this gives them no real direction or heavy use in PVP.

    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!

    [list]
    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones
  • Still no incentive here to fit lasers in the turret slots.



    The current amarr drone boats however have done something right they have a PVP function (ewar) and have combined it with the drones for added DPS with this EWAR.

    But I think they need to be mini pilgrims myself


    Tragedy wrote:
    Bah. You give us the fifth turret on the gallente ship and then take away the damage bonus. We were better off with two utility highs, tracking for small hybrids is already great.

    I feel like charle brown after that ***** yanks the football away when he tries to kick it.



    The current standard for gallente drone boats is give them guns and then nerf them shortly afterwards as people complain that the DPS is to OP (I don't disagree to the complaints but then the ship gets a PVE downgrade).


    Which is why I have strong resistance to adding guns along side drones then calling it a drone boat, just give it decent drones then allow the high slots to be EWAR/Drone Bonus slots (maybe move the dronetracking and speed and damage mods to high slots).

    Or give it a rack of guns and call it a blaster boats, please don't combine the two it does not work.

    PinkKnife wrote:
    The problem with not having hybrids bonused is then you get 5 autocannon turret drone machines that blap everything.


    I agree which is why the should not have turret slots but instead utlity high slots.
    Lili Lu
    #579 - 2012-10-05 17:04:11 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!


      Amarr:
    • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
    • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones

    • Caldari:
    • Removed one high slot and launcher slot, gained one mid slot - thus layout now is 7 / 4 / 2, 7 launchers

    • Gallente:
    • Drone bandwidth increased to 35m3
    • Drone bay increased to 60m3
    • Turret number increased from 4 to 5
    • 5% hybrid turret damage bonus per level changed for 10% hybrid turret tracking bonus per level
    • Role bonus changed from 50% hybrid turret optimal range to 25% MWD speed to drones

    • Minmatar hull unchanged.


    To answer some questions that have been asked before:

  • Why having a fixed damage bonus on the Caldari and Minmatar hulls, didn't you want to move away from this philosophy?
  • Yes we definitely do, when it makes sense. For instance, we kept a kinetic damage bonus on the Condor, while the Kestrel has a generic one. In this particular case however, having general damage bonuses on these two hulls would bring them too close of each other.

  • Don't you think the Caldari hull is going to have an insane alpha with light missiles, or just too good in general?
  • The layout change will help mitigate that somewhat. If it still too much of an issue we can always revert the light missile damage change and increase the ROF on light and rapid light missile launchers instead.

  • Why is the Amarr hull better at drone management than the Gallente one?
  • That was a good point that should now be fixed. The drone bay will however stay larger on the Amarr hull as it is a trait currently encountered in Amarr versus Gallente drone ships.

  • Isn't a 25% MWD drone bonus break drones trying to catch static targets?
  • CCP Fozzie made me run some tests at gunpoint, 25% seems to be okay.

  • What's the point of the Catalyst next to the new Gallente hull?
  • We're planning some changes for it - keep an eye for them in the next days on this thread.

    Ok this is an improvement. I'm still a little worried about the 10 -50% explosion velocity bonus on the Caldari destroyer. When you put the new TC and TE changes into the game will those in combination with this bonus make this ship too strong? It is one reason why I would like to see the missile bonuses on those modules be weaker in comparison to the current tracking bonuses for guns (although the current falloff bonuses could use a little shave I think, and that might disarm the autocannon falloff whining in the Cane/HML nerf thread).

    The mwd speed is an interesting adjustment for the drone destroyers. Will be interesting if it will necessitate an omnidirectional in the mids, and one might want this anyway even though one usually uses such mods for sentries. The Gallente one will have that option and still tackle, while ironically if the omni is desirable the amarr one might have to go without tackle (like the coercer used toP) The small improvement on the dronebay for the Gallente ship is welcome. The bandwith will probably mostly get ignored in favor of just using 5 light drones but at least there is something there for larger ships if the pilot does not figure that he will just get volleyed by the larger ship.

    Still not sure why the sig reduction bonus was chosen for the minmatar ship, or the neut bonus on the Amarr. These seem more like tech II ship bonuses or tech II role bonuses. But I guess you wanted something new for these ships.

    Anyway, thanks for these adjustments.Smile
    PinkKnife
    The Cuddlefish
    Ethereal Dawn
    #580 - 2012-10-05 17:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
    CheekyBabey wrote:

    I agree which is why the should not have turret slots but instead utlity high slots.


    Okay, but for what? Dampners are useless against most frigates because the engagement range is so small as is, and they lock so fast. Unlike the Amarr version, the Gallente don't have a real useful ewar against frigates. Throw more neuts on it and turn it into another amarr destroyer?

    The other issue with MWD speed is how drones apply damage. It doesn't matter if they can CATCH a MWD frigate because as soon as they switch out of their mwd mode, the frigate moves on, and the drones sit there, then switch back to MWD and never apply their dps.

    THIS is one of the major problems and why drones are broken and largely crap as a secondary weapon system. They are unreliable DPS against certain targets, they are destroyable and unreplaceable, and easily manipulated by the target.

    How useful is a system of missiles where you only get 5, they can be destroyed and easily outrun.

    Also, why no drone implants?