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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2012-11-13 07:05:00 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
When I was doing my test missions, in one L1 mission the NPCs did switch to my drones more than once. It was a drone mission, maybe they are not bugged?

In W-space the rats do switch to drones over and over. The method I use:

Launch drones. Keep them close.
Wait for drone aggro, pull them in.
Wait just a few seconds, just enough for aggro to switch to you. Then re-launch
You now got about 2 minutes before you got to worry about drone aggro again.

It seems like the NPCs (at least once the bug is fixed) are on a 2 minute cycle. Every 2 minutes they re-evaluate if they want to change targets. If there is no other target to swap to, they remain primed, ready to swap. If a new target shows up at that point, they swap right away. (New ship warping in, drones that just got deployed). This means if you pull in your drones then wait 2 minutes and re-deploy, they will catch aggro right away. So dont wait.

In W space we have noticed that if you got 3 ships in the fleet, drones rarely get aggro. But with one ship when the NPCs want to swap the only thing available is your drones. Be prepared to pull them in and re-deploy on that 2 minute cycle.

Not gonna lie, timing drone flights is not my idea of fun. Should make the assault interesting. 2 min of drones doing their thing followed by recalling them and moving in towards the ball of ships which melts my tank because I can't tell my drones to reengage past 10km under the damps.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2012-11-13 12:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Keko Khaan wrote:
Miss Silv wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Please note all the threads on the General Discussion forum about hammering high sec income. Do you think it is purely co-incidental that there has been a massive campaign on the forums attacking high sec and these AI changes occurring at the same time?



While that's most likely true, reducing high sec income is perfectly fine - low risk should equal low reward and promote lowsec and nullsec as greener pastures for players.

The problem is that a laid-back playstyle is tossed into the bin (God I wish I hadn't gone gallente now), and that it fails to prevent the 23/7 AFKers that seem to be a large part of the income problem. Having to check up on drones every 20 seconds instead of every 3-4 minutes breaks any possibility of doing anything productive while playing.



Its reducing my 0.0 income. Its direct nerf to ALL ratting. This has nothing to do with hisec.


You are absolutely correct when you say 0.0 will be impacted.
I cannot deny that.

The HML Tengu, a platform of choice for many nullsec PVE pilots, is getting hit, with the overt 10% Heavy Missle damage nerf, plus the less quantifiable nerf to range.
And there is no doubt that solo Drone boat operators in null sec are just as hammered as high sec players, assuming CCP does not do any more catering to them than they already have (plex structures don't use he new AI).

But high sec is devastated far more than null sec. Allow me to explain.

When I lived in null sec, the bulk of people made their ratting income from running plexes (including escalations) and farming belts.

So a couple things:
Farming belts:
a. Mostly done in missile/gun boats, since light drones (too little damage) and heavy drones (travel time makes them inefficient, and never fun when a red shows up in system and your Ogres are 30 seconds away). But yes, people going out to have some fun in an Ishkur in a belt are done.

b. Running plexes: Solo drone boat operators trying to do 5/10's. or 6/10's alone are finished, no doubt. But in reality, most plexes are run in groups, and you never try a 10/10 solo. I have flown all 3 class of ship in the Maze, and I know that the drones will have a much better chance of survival than in a high sec mission. A logi pilot will be now targeting 2 other ships, and 10 drones. Further, he may be also targeting a second logi.
I can certainly see a situation where instead of the traditional tank/gank/logi trifecta, where the buffer tank goes in first, we will see situations where people fly 3 RR Domi's, or possibly tank/gank, and 2 logi's.

Ultimately, you are correct that null sec will be impacted. But in the vast majority of null sec PvE, it makes PvE more difficult, not impossible. In high sec, a solo player in an L4 is done, unless he is flying a missle boat that can hit fast moving NPC frigs. Even a solo Mach pilot needs his light drones to nail tackling NPC's that get under his guns, and when they are instapopped, that Machariel is dead.


Well guess your kinda right.. However ive used to make most of my isk by running anoms. Ive used to run them with different setups like solo mach, solo tengu, tengu and heavy domi, carrier and sentry rail domi etc. Its true that my solo tengu and solo mach doesnt get affected too much (forgot that tengu nerf woops). But my multiboxing is done in anoms if i cant use drones.. Which reduces my completion time significantly.

Carriers and drones plays big part in sov space anoms.. I know some guys that multiboxes anoms with 2 carriers or super and carrier etc.

Whats wrong with PVE capitals anyways.. Why ccp hate em so much? These expensive tough to train big ass ships wont get used too much otherwise.. Sure its cool to get to jump my stuff in null with em but im not allowed to shoot rats with it? So im allowed to use carrier only once in year on some pathetic structure repping job?
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#523 - 2012-11-13 16:44:04 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
When I was doing my test missions, in one L1 mission the NPCs did switch to my drones more than once. It was a drone mission, maybe they are not bugged?

In W-space the rats do switch to drones over and over. The method I use:

Launch drones. Keep them close.
Wait for drone aggro, pull them in.
Wait just a few seconds, just enough for aggro to switch to you. Then re-launch
You now got about 2 minutes before you got to worry about drone aggro again.

It seems like the NPCs (at least once the bug is fixed) are on a 2 minute cycle. Every 2 minutes they re-evaluate if they want to change targets. If there is no other target to swap to, they remain primed, ready to swap. If a new target shows up at that point, they swap right away. (New ship warping in, drones that just got deployed). This means if you pull in your drones then wait 2 minutes and re-deploy, they will catch aggro right away. So dont wait.

In W space we have noticed that if you got 3 ships in the fleet, drones rarely get aggro. But with one ship when the NPCs want to swap the only thing available is your drones. Be prepared to pull them in and re-deploy on that 2 minute cycle.


If this is correct, stop and ask yourself, "Does this improve the gameplay?"

For me, personally, it does not. All it does it make me buy a kitchen timer set to 2 mins, and reset it after I launch drones. How does this actually IMPROVE the gameplay, compared to the way things are now? Is it challenging? Is it a challenge to set a timer, or count one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi to 120? Hardly. So WHY do it?!

This is the main objection so many people have. Incidentally, the same objection people had with Incarna expansion. Simple question: does this make the game better, more fun, more challenging? And really, it doesn't. It just adds one extra chore for drone boat pilots. Considering that CCP Ytterbium already admitted that drones are terribly outdated as they are now, is this something drone pilots even need? It's already a hassle, even with current mechanics.

And depending on what size drones you use, losing drones is all too easy, even with current system. All it takes is for a new wave to come in while you still have slow drones (like Ogres) in space. If they get aggro, you'll likely lose one or two. And if they get aggro AND get webbed? You definitely will lose one or two. And this will improve the fun factor how? EVE is not the kind of game where you want to keep kicking the player in the groin stuff like that. Other players do that already.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2012-11-13 17:08:05 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
When I was doing my test missions, in one L1 mission the NPCs did switch to my drones more than once. It was a drone mission, maybe they are not bugged?

In W-space the rats do switch to drones over and over. The method I use:

Launch drones. Keep them close.
Wait for drone aggro, pull them in.
Wait just a few seconds, just enough for aggro to switch to you. Then re-launch
You now got about 2 minutes before you got to worry about drone aggro again.

It seems like the NPCs (at least once the bug is fixed) are on a 2 minute cycle. Every 2 minutes they re-evaluate if they want to change targets. If there is no other target to swap to, they remain primed, ready to swap. If a new target shows up at that point, they swap right away. (New ship warping in, drones that just got deployed). This means if you pull in your drones then wait 2 minutes and re-deploy, they will catch aggro right away. So dont wait.

In W space we have noticed that if you got 3 ships in the fleet, drones rarely get aggro. But with one ship when the NPCs want to swap the only thing available is your drones. Be prepared to pull them in and re-deploy on that 2 minute cycle.


If this is correct, stop and ask yourself, "Does this improve the gameplay?"

For me, personally, it does not. All it does it make me buy a kitchen timer set to 2 mins, and reset it after I launch drones. How does this actually IMPROVE the gameplay, compared to the way things are now? Is it challenging? Is it a challenge to set a timer, or count one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi to 120? Hardly. So WHY do it?!

This is the main objection so many people have. Incidentally, the same objection people had with Incarna expansion. Simple question: does this make the game better, more fun, more challenging? And really, it doesn't. It just adds one extra chore for drone boat pilots. Considering that CCP Ytterbium already admitted that drones are terribly outdated as they are now, is this something drone pilots even need? It's already a hassle, even with current mechanics.

And depending on what size drones you use, losing drones is all too easy, even with current system. All it takes is for a new wave to come in while you still have slow drones (like Ogres) in space. If they get aggro, you'll likely lose one or two. And if they get aggro AND get webbed? You definitely will lose one or two. And this will improve the fun factor how? EVE is not the kind of game where you want to keep kicking the player in the groin stuff like that. Other players do that already.

such changes could cause an expedited overhaul on drone and drone mechanics. At which the changes would be not so hard on drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#525 - 2012-11-13 17:18:38 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
When I was doing my test missions, in one L1 mission the NPCs did switch to my drones more than once. It was a drone mission, maybe they are not bugged?

In W-space the rats do switch to drones over and over. The method I use:

Launch drones. Keep them close.
Wait for drone aggro, pull them in.
Wait just a few seconds, just enough for aggro to switch to you. Then re-launch
You now got about 2 minutes before you got to worry about drone aggro again.

It seems like the NPCs (at least once the bug is fixed) are on a 2 minute cycle. Every 2 minutes they re-evaluate if they want to change targets. If there is no other target to swap to, they remain primed, ready to swap. If a new target shows up at that point, they swap right away. (New ship warping in, drones that just got deployed). This means if you pull in your drones then wait 2 minutes and re-deploy, they will catch aggro right away. So dont wait.

In W space we have noticed that if you got 3 ships in the fleet, drones rarely get aggro. But with one ship when the NPCs want to swap the only thing available is your drones. Be prepared to pull them in and re-deploy on that 2 minute cycle.


If this is correct, stop and ask yourself, "Does this improve the gameplay?"

For me, personally, it does not. All it does it make me buy a kitchen timer set to 2 mins, and reset it after I launch drones. How does this actually IMPROVE the gameplay, compared to the way things are now? Is it challenging? Is it a challenge to set a timer, or count one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi to 120? Hardly. So WHY do it?!

This is the main objection so many people have. Incidentally, the same objection people had with Incarna expansion. Simple question: does this make the game better, more fun, more challenging? And really, it doesn't. It just adds one extra chore for drone boat pilots. Considering that CCP Ytterbium already admitted that drones are terribly outdated as they are now, is this something drone pilots even need? It's already a hassle, even with current mechanics.

And depending on what size drones you use, losing drones is all too easy, even with current system. All it takes is for a new wave to come in while you still have slow drones (like Ogres) in space. If they get aggro, you'll likely lose one or two. And if they get aggro AND get webbed? You definitely will lose one or two. And this will improve the fun factor how? EVE is not the kind of game where you want to keep kicking the player in the groin stuff like that. Other players do that already.

such changes could cause an expedited overhaul on drone and drone mechanics. At which the changes would be not so hard on drones.


Howabout carrier losing 4 fighters / anom? Thats like 80 mil pop from fighters.. Oh i forgot we are forbidden to use capitals against npc.. Even those smaller T2 drones costs alot.. Thats like saying you need to buy few new 425mm railgun II at the end of every mission because npc doesnt like rails...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#526 - 2012-11-13 17:33:25 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:

Well guess your kinda right.. However ive used to make most of my isk by running anoms. Ive used to run them with different setups like solo mach, solo tengu, tengu and heavy domi, carrier and sentry rail domi etc. Its true that my solo tengu and solo mach doesnt get affected too much (forgot that tengu nerf woops). But my multiboxing is done in anoms if i cant use drones.. Which reduces my completion time significantly.

Carriers and drones plays big part in sov space anoms.. I know some guys that multiboxes anoms with 2 carriers or super and carrier etc.

Whats wrong with PVE capitals anyways.. Why ccp hate em so much? These expensive tough to train big ass ships wont get used too much otherwise.. Sure its cool to get to jump my stuff in null with em but im not allowed to shoot rats with it? So im allowed to use carrier only once in year on some pathetic structure repping job?


Well, I should have clarified my statement to say that anoms/plexes are the same thing for me, though plexes can be an order of magnitude harder with all those neut/web towers. But as CCP as has stated, the new AI won't apply to plex structures.

As for your multi-boxing days being done with drones, for heavies and lights, yes they are, unless you keeping them within RR range of an RR Domi. But no way you can keep the mobile drones alive beyond RR range.

Now, that being said, I did not test multi-boxing RR Domi's, since I am down to one account these days.
And CCP has implied, and some testers seem to agree, that RR'ing will be considered a high threat by the AI, just as in wh's.
If that is the case, then a pair of RR Domi's repping each other should keep the aggro off the drones.....maybe.

And as for your carriers, I can see a situation where you fire out our heavies or fighters, and use RR on them. If you have two Thannies cap transferring between them, you can perma run a couple remote reppers.

The only problem with this is of course, you can't target all your drones/ fighters at once, and will they survive before you can get a lock on them. That I don't know.

Bottom line, multi-boxing is likely to be OK...(yay for a pair of AFK RR Domi plex/ null anamoly /L4 mission runners).
But solo drone users are finished.

If that is the case, I will be in a real quandry. I hate giving CCP the satisfaction of forcing me to open up another account again, and I hate the idea of having to work twice as hard every month to play for plexes, but it is likely the only option left.

Other, than of course, quitting the game.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#527 - 2012-11-13 20:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
CCP FoxFour wrote:

I will do my best to keep posting. As we continue to ramp up it gets harder and harder but I suppose the fact that we are getting closer to release is even more reason to post.


I have been away for a few days, but I am looking forward to testing these changes to the A.I.

The changes made as you described sound like they may just be enough to make the difference. Combined with the fact that the defect of the A.I. only targeting the first flight of drones is to be left as is for now I do not think I will have an issue with this going live, once I get a chance to test the changes.

I believe that leaving the glitch of being able to protect your drones by recalling them and relaunching them will give all players on tranquility a chance to experience and get used to the A.I. change without the full impact. Basically hitting the players with two smaller blows rather than one big one. I believe this will drastically reduce the rage and give you a chance to tweak it a little more when you fix the defect after retribution if the impact on the average mission runner turns out to be a little to heavy.

In the past CCP developers have seemed to ignore the community feedback on more than one occasion. But this seems to have greatly improved with the last couple expansions. The way you have been very forward in responding to feed back, and how it seems to have had an significant impact on how you have proceeded with the project has given me great confidence that you will succeed in making EVE better for all of us. As opposed as I have been to this change, I believe you have addressed my concerns, and I look forward to further testing this content.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#528 - 2012-11-14 02:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.

also i'm quite sure that quite alot of hisec mission runners losing their expensive ships in missions with such low income will just start playing other games. i'm not bothered about them, but many of them pay to play, plex prices will go up and you'll lose customers, You can get away with some overpowered crap in game like ancillary shield boosters or hurricanes, but i think this is something different and not listening what players are saying this time will hurt.

also did you nerf tengu and almost killed drones to make tengu the only boat to deal with frigs and everything else? because that tengu nerf doesn't look that bad now
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#529 - 2012-11-14 14:58:07 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.


That's one of many examples where the new AI will cause massive issues. I mean, it's one thing to be perma-jammed while your drones are taking out their ships one at a time. But it's going to be a whoooole other ball game when you release the drones, get jammed, drones pull aggro, you HAVE to recall them, at which point re-releasing them won't make them engage hostiles and you're basically stuck perma-jammed with inactive drones.

This shows, pretty clearly, now broken EWAR modules are. How broken drones are. And how changing the AI before fixing those and re-doing the missions is a very, very bad idea. It will lead to a ton of problems.

To the people who say that the current bug with drone targeting AI will allow drone boats to function, I agree. Yes. For now. But what happens when this is changed? I seriously doubt they'll leave it as it is. So what then? What happens when AI begins to actively target and re-target drones, including webbing them? Ever try recalling an Ogre with a web on it? It's not pretty. When that happens, you better be in a fast boat and fly to meet him, because otherwise you can just wave it goodbye. And if he's 60km away when that happens? Yeah, just wave bye-bye because it's gone.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#530 - 2012-11-14 15:44:24 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.


That's one of many examples where the new AI will cause massive issues. I mean, it's one thing to be perma-jammed while your drones are taking out their ships one at a time. But it's going to be a whoooole other ball game when you release the drones, get jammed, drones pull aggro, you HAVE to recall them, at which point re-releasing them won't make them engage hostiles and you're basically stuck perma-jammed with inactive drones.

This shows, pretty clearly, now broken EWAR modules are. How broken drones are. And how changing the AI before fixing those and re-doing the missions is a very, very bad idea. It will lead to a ton of problems.

To the people who say that the current bug with drone targeting AI will allow drone boats to function, I agree. Yes. For now. But what happens when this is changed? I seriously doubt they'll leave it as it is. So what then? What happens when AI begins to actively target and re-target drones, including webbing them? Ever try recalling an Ogre with a web on it? It's not pretty. When that happens, you better be in a fast boat and fly to meet him, because otherwise you can just wave it goodbye. And if he's 60km away when that happens? Yeah, just wave bye-bye because it's gone.



Yes with the A.I. change, how we use drones will also change. If this is game breaking the rage from mission runners against the developers will force them to fix it quickly. I like the idea of a more challenging A.I. but it needs to be done very carefully or the current missions that rely on agro management to complete will be near impossible for the average mission runner.

Most mission runners are players who prefer to play solo, and prefer to play PVE. No carebear will ever be forced into PVP content. They will just quit. They will also not be forced into group content, as they would already be doing that if it was their interest. People play EVE because it is different than other MMO's. Changing game mechanics to be more similar to main stream MMO's will not bring in main stream players, it will just drive away the players we already have.

Idgarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2012-11-14 20:52:52 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.


That's one of many examples where the new AI will cause massive issues. I mean, it's one thing to be perma-jammed while your drones are taking out their ships one at a time. But it's going to be a whoooole other ball game when you release the drones, get jammed, drones pull aggro, you HAVE to recall them, at which point re-releasing them won't make them engage hostiles and you're basically stuck perma-jammed with inactive drones.

This shows, pretty clearly, now broken EWAR modules are. How broken drones are. And how changing the AI before fixing those and re-doing the missions is a very, very bad idea. It will lead to a ton of problems.

To the people who say that the current bug with drone targeting AI will allow drone boats to function, I agree. Yes. For now. But what happens when this is changed? I seriously doubt they'll leave it as it is. So what then? What happens when AI begins to actively target and re-target drones, including webbing them? Ever try recalling an Ogre with a web on it? It's not pretty. When that happens, you better be in a fast boat and fly to meet him, because otherwise you can just wave it goodbye. And if he's 60km away when that happens? Yeah, just wave bye-bye because it's gone.



Yes with the A.I. change, how we use drones will also change. If this is game breaking the rage from mission runners against the developers will force them to fix it quickly. I like the idea of a more challenging A.I. but it needs to be done very carefully or the current missions that rely on agro management to complete will be near impossible for the average mission runner.

Most mission runners are players who prefer to play solo, and prefer to play PVE. No carebear will ever be forced into PVP content. They will just quit. They will also not be forced into group content, as they would already be doing that if it was their interest. People play EVE because it is different than other MMO's. Changing game mechanics to be more similar to main stream MMO's will not bring in main stream players, it will just drive away the players we already have.




CCP has clearly stated that Eve isn't supposed to be a solo game. Now join a mega-corp like you are supposed to and get back to guarding an ice mining fleet! :)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#532 - 2012-11-14 21:24:30 UTC
Idgarad wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.


That's one of many examples where the new AI will cause massive issues. I mean, it's one thing to be perma-jammed while your drones are taking out their ships one at a time. But it's going to be a whoooole other ball game when you release the drones, get jammed, drones pull aggro, you HAVE to recall them, at which point re-releasing them won't make them engage hostiles and you're basically stuck perma-jammed with inactive drones.

This shows, pretty clearly, now broken EWAR modules are. How broken drones are. And how changing the AI before fixing those and re-doing the missions is a very, very bad idea. It will lead to a ton of problems.

To the people who say that the current bug with drone targeting AI will allow drone boats to function, I agree. Yes. For now. But what happens when this is changed? I seriously doubt they'll leave it as it is. So what then? What happens when AI begins to actively target and re-target drones, including webbing them? Ever try recalling an Ogre with a web on it? It's not pretty. When that happens, you better be in a fast boat and fly to meet him, because otherwise you can just wave it goodbye. And if he's 60km away when that happens? Yeah, just wave bye-bye because it's gone.



Yes with the A.I. change, how we use drones will also change. If this is game breaking the rage from mission runners against the developers will force them to fix it quickly. I like the idea of a more challenging A.I. but it needs to be done very carefully or the current missions that rely on agro management to complete will be near impossible for the average mission runner.

Most mission runners are players who prefer to play solo, and prefer to play PVE. No carebear will ever be forced into PVP content. They will just quit. They will also not be forced into group content, as they would already be doing that if it was their interest. People play EVE because it is different than other MMO's. Changing game mechanics to be more similar to main stream MMO's will not bring in main stream players, it will just drive away the players we already have.




CCP has clearly stated that Eve isn't supposed to be a solo game. Now join a mega-corp like you are supposed to and get back to guarding an ice mining fleet! :)


I hope that is sarcasm.

I simply don't know anymore if the cadre of high sec haters within CCP is strong enough to out-maneuver the sane people within CCP and to actually bring high sec to its collective knees. Just reading the general discussion pages it is abundantly clear there are plenty of null sec zealots who will get very happy in their pants if high sec solo missioning is trashed and a large segment of the Eve player base quits.

But does that zealotry pervade within CCP enough to actually convince the accountants that it is a good thing to anger the majority of your player base? Time will tell.
Miss Silv
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2012-11-14 22:35:42 UTC
Darnit, my subscription ends a few days before the launch, was aiming to spend the last few days zipping around in a probing indy, looting the wrecks from unsuspecting missioners and miners.

Oh well, drones go from gimped to gutted, mining is borked , and not gonna sit around waiting for gunnery skills just to be caught dead in the water by a couple of frig rats. Releasing it with broken code just means that it'll be another month or two before **** really hits the fan once it's 'fixed'.
Mund Richard
#534 - 2012-11-15 15:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i wonder what will happen with remote rapairing when fighting gurista npc.


That's one of many examples where the new AI will cause massive issues. I mean, it's one thing to be perma-jammed while your drones are taking out their ships one at a time. But it's going to be a whoooole other ball game when you release the drones, get jammed, drones pull aggro, you HAVE to recall them, at which point re-releasing them won't make them engage hostiles and you're basically stuck perma-jammed with inactive drones.

This shows, pretty clearly, now broken EWAR modules are. How broken drones are. And how changing the AI before fixing those and re-doing the missions is a very, very bad idea. It will lead to a ton of problems.

To the people who say that the current bug with drone targeting AI will allow drone boats to function, I agree. Yes. For now. But what happens when this is changed? I seriously doubt they'll leave it as it is. So what then? What happens when AI begins to actively target and re-target drones, including webbing them? Ever try recalling an Ogre with a web on it? It's not pretty. When that happens, you better be in a fast boat and fly to meet him, because otherwise you can just wave it goodbye. And if he's 60km away when that happens? Yeah, just wave bye-bye because it's gone.

Oh yes.
At the time I live in gurista space.
Have been training skills for a few months now in anticipation of this change, to go somewhere where the permajam does not shine (coincidentally, the sun does all the brighter, as is the grass greener).

Voiced my concern over this in the thread a few months ago as well, but CCP kinda jumped over my post, guess it wasn't noteworthy enough.
Or must be working as intended.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#535 - 2012-11-15 17:53:44 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:

Oh yes.
At the time I live in gurista space.
Have been training skills for a few months now in anticipation of this change, to go somewhere where the permajam does not shine (coincidentally, the sun does all the brighter, as is the grass greener).

Voiced my concern over this in the thread a few months ago as well, but CCP kinda jumped over my post, guess it wasn't noteworthy enough.
Or must be working as intended.


Once heavy and light drones are rendered useless, people will be climbing into gun boats and that means no one will want to be jammed or TD's.

Minnie and Serp space is going to get crowded.
Mund Richard
#536 - 2012-11-15 22:23:45 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Once heavy and light drones are rendered useless, people will be climbing into gun boats and that means no one will want to be jammed or TD's.

Minnie and Serp space is going to get crowded.

Because people liked being jammed or TD-d before Roll

Coincidentally we get a skill that increases the ship's sensor strength this expansion, and unbonused TDs are getting nerfed.
Because NPC EWAR works like players, riiight? Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#537 - 2012-11-15 23:35:07 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Once heavy and light drones are rendered useless, people will be climbing into gun boats and that means no one will want to be jammed or TD's.

Minnie and Serp space is going to get crowded.

Because people liked being jammed or TD-d before Roll

Coincidentally we get a skill that increases the ship's sensor strength this expansion, and unbonused TDs are getting nerfed.
Because NPC EWAR works like players, riiight? Roll


If you seriously believe that NPC EWAR is being nerfed, I would love to see the link for that.
And my point was that in the past people had drones to deal with jamming and TD's. That will be no longer the case when CCP closes the loophole at some indeterminate future point.
Mund Richard
#538 - 2012-11-16 00:14:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
If you seriously believe that NPC EWAR is being nerfed, I would love to see the link for that.

Was going to add another line to make it clear where I stand with my oppinion (think it was NPC normal or citadel torpedo...), but thought it would be apparent enough.

On a sidenote, as far as I know NPC jamming *is* dependant on the ship's sensor strength (Marauders?), so in an indirect way, it is getting nerfed by the new skill.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#539 - 2012-11-16 01:21:36 UTC
IMO...if this goes into effect, it would be better if they just removed drone aggro in the missions/sites/whatever that they expect people to be running solo in. A veteran player may be able to manage the aggro to an extent, but a new player is going to lose so many hobgoblin I's that he'll probably just give up on using them.

thhief ghabmoef
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#540 - 2012-11-17 19:48:52 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
4) Salvage drones doing ewar effects and causing NPC to swtich. Again, a cheap way to keep the NPC from ever shooting anything.

What do you mean by "Salvage drones doing ewar effects"? Do you just mean salvage drones getting aggro for doing their thing? I'd love to see salvage drones get completely ignored by NPCs. They don't have any combat value, after all.