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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Author
Frying Doom
#461 - 2012-09-03 08:51:59 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Why do people think High sec is a demographic.

Where a person lives in EVE matters little. What matters is what they care about.



I live in high sec space at this time. However, I don't care about missions, mining, incursions, trading, wars, industry.
I care about being able to sit at stations and watch people blow each other up. I enjoy doing that for hours (on the other hand, I don't enjoy the lack of pew pew ever since dec evasions were deemed not an exploit, hasn't been the same).
Would I be represented by what is usually meant by a HS rep? No.

When you all talk about representation, you should not be talking about location. Location means jack.
Its what you do that needs representation, not where you chose to be.



Sorry all, had to get that off my chest.

It is not so much as Hi-sec people are a demographic but as to how CCP allocate resources for those areas, they are grouped in their thinking and all though I might for example like to see war decs fixed so they do not suck so badly as a priority, others like Lord Zim might like to have the ridiculously stupid Sovereignty system in Null sec fixed.

There are only so many developers to work on so many problems at the same time, like the POS fix is waiting for the crime watch fix as the same team is doing both.

So we talk about locations as a means to say where we think resources should go, that and its fun to tease the Nullbears.

But as I have said if you care about "However, I don't care about missions, mining, incursions, trading, wars, industry.
I care about being able to sit at stations and watch people blow each other up." then maybe you should run for the CSM as the Voyeur party and get video capture built into eve as your priority.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#462 - 2012-09-03 08:53:50 UTC
Abel Merkabah wrote:
When does CSM voting start? Did I miss it?

the voting should start in around Febuary next year with the Candidate application process.

The white paper however telling us how these elections will be held is due out in December.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#463 - 2012-09-03 09:49:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and again, the funny thing is that far more people are speaking up around here than pretty much anywhere else in the world of games. The general rule of thumb is that ~10% occasionally visit a forum for a game (not necessarily the official one and not necessarily to post) and that ~1% of the players are active on the official forums. 16.6% is a huge turnout and it means that those who have an interest in being heard are being heard — the representation is there already.

So because we have a good amount of people involved, we should not want more, oh and do these games have player elected councils?

Tippia wrote:
You mean the ones that indicate that people aren't interested in knowing more, because if they were, they would know?

Nice blanket statement, they have always done so well in the world.

Tippia wrote:
Statistics don't agree with you.[/quote]
You mean like the statistic that in the CSM 7 Election only 16.63% of the accounts voted, no seems like the statistics are saying that only a minority voted.
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
I agree they have done a lot of it and it needs to be done again this year and every year as there are always new players and CCP and the CSM should always be looking to involve more people into the CSM elections every year.
You mean, exactly what they've been doing it since day 1?

No obviously I mean better or I wouldn't have said it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2012-09-03 10:51:28 UTC
betoli wrote:
I would think you should be able to stand for whatever aspect you want - it would be up to the electorate to make their minds up whether you were the best person to represent :insert gameplay choice:. If I were voting, I would assume a jack of all trades was less desirable than someone who has all their eggs in the same metaphoric basket - but thats purely personal opinion.

A jack of all trades tends to have a better understanding of the bigger picture than someone who's focusing on one single aspect of whatever, and if he's active in more than just one area of the game then he has an even bigger chance of being a better asset to "the CSM" than if he were someone who did nothing but make spreadsheets about his BPOs, setup vast production spreadsheets detailing input material requirements, cost, profitability, maintain multiple alts in multiple trading hubs, and min/max that as much as possible.

In EVE, while someone might be called "an industrialist", and as such would love nothing better than if CCP were to buff all the things he uses, be that BPO copying, invention, manufacturing, hauling, etc, to make his part of the game better, that really doesn't mean he should be elected to be "the industrialist representative". Why? Because people who call themselves industrialists are most commonly hisec only. As such, I would expect a lot of them to have a penchant for bringing up minute UI details which could make their day to day living easier, while being blindingly oblivious to a much larger sucking chest wound which is the fact that nullsec industry is more or less limited to 2 things. 1) Import everything from hisec, 2) build supercaps. The rest is easier, cheaper, quicker and by far the least effort to do in hisec (and lowsec for normal caps), and means that nullsec is depopulated most of the time outside of actual fleet fights. This, in turn, means that roaming gangs have a very, very hard time actually catching someone, because they'll be less than 5 pr system (iirc most of the systems I've flown through lately outside of fleet ops have had 1-2 in them, total).

The same goes for things such as L4s, which set the reward bar so high that a lot of people don't find the effort of receiving the rewards which nullsec anoms can yield worth it, and as such also help depopulate nullsec even further. I don't expect anyone representing "mission runners" to do anything other than choke on his coffee if anyone even contemplates uttering the words "nerf" and "L4" in the same sentence (except if it's prefixed with "don't"), even though it very well could've been a benefit for the game as a whole.

betoli wrote:
But OK. Your earlier question: We are striving for improved representation of demographics: I believe that creating specific role posts would encourage voters to think about whether a candidate really represented that position. I think that because I believe the majority of players don't meta-game. There would be nothing to stop a null sec player standing for office as a high sec rep, however if they did, and won it, it would highlight (both to the player base and to CCP) that the CSM system was flawed in the way that's been discussed ad-nausium in this thread. Therefore if the representational model is flawed, then under this model, it would become transparently, embarrassingly, and indefensibly, obvious beyond debate. That would be so undesirable that I suspect no one would try it on, and there would be a lot of pressure from everyone (CCP, other CSMers, and players alike) to maintain the credibility of the institution.

Assuming that were the case, then representational balance is acheived by CCP specifying the number of posts in a proffesion domain according to their understanding of the player distribution - that doesn't need to be (and couldn't be) perfect it just needs to improve on the current **** poor distribution of representation:demographic.

You keep harping on and on about "representational balance", and thus I ask you this: what's broken in hisec which needs fixing, apart from wardecs/crimewatch? What's broken in lowsec which needs fixing, apart from FW farmville? What's broken in nullsec which needs fixing, apart from the SOV system? What's broken wrt missions which require fixing? What's broken wrt industry which needs fixing?

How much representation does the things which are broken in these areas of the game actually need? How much are they getting today? How much time should CCP dedicate to each of these broken things, and in what order?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#465 - 2012-09-03 11:15:54 UTC
Orzo Torasson wrote:
Platforms that nullsec CSM candidates run on:

-Tech rebalance
-Supercapital Rebalancing
-Fix Player Owned Stations


Platforms that highsec CSM candidates run on

-How can we make miners invincible?
-No, like, even more invincible
-More clothes in the NEX store
-How can we make boobs bigger in the character creator?


I don't know about you guys, but I am very happy we're in charge.


rofl i have a lot more to go in fighting with than trivial matters such as that. miners shouldnt be invinsible noone should not even in high sec but hi sec players should have the chance to actively defend themselves not react to being attack.

Ghazu
#466 - 2012-09-03 11:21:57 UTC
ugh zug wrote:
with any representation system comes the inherent risk of your elected to turn around and do what they want not what their voters want, and regardless of where they came from they can always be turned into someones pet, everyone has a price.

high sec CAN have representation, is just that we don't want it enough, reason why nullsec members get elected is because they have an alliance behind them 9/10 or scam votes from people by misrepresentation and misinformation....

here's how to have high sec representation,

Step one create a high sec party.
Step two advertise for membership.
Step three poll members for what high sec needs.
Step four educate members on CSM elections.
Step five hold party elections.
Step six have members vote for party sanctioned member(s) in CSM election.
Step seven pray your elected candidate is not swayed by isk bids from null entities.

That's what issler dainze tried to do, did it fizzle out?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#467 - 2012-09-03 11:22:47 UTC
Quote:
-How can we make boobs bigger in the character creator?

I really don't see the issue with that point.

Quote:
but hi sec players should have the chance to actively defend themselves not react to being attack.

What ? How is "reacting to being attacked" not "actively defending" ?

This ain't the US, who "defend" themselves by attacking first.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#468 - 2012-09-03 11:33:15 UTC
@Op.

What is it about representing this or that sector of Space that has you worried ? Do you fly only in Highsec or do you mix it all up with the different regions df space in Eve ? Those stats you have as a signature are quite meaningless and out of context.

I have no fixed "home" in any single type of space. I fly Highsec, Lowsec, Nullsec, WH's. I cannot believe that I am the only player that does this. I go where the fun and action is, not by the security level or earning potential is for any given sector of space.
Again, I cannot be the only pilot who has this style.

I voted in the latest CSM and am happy to say I voted for Hans. You do not have to be a resident of any particular place in space to determine for yourself, who can do the best for the entire space of Eve.

I would however go as far to say that the residents of Nullsec have far more interest in the game than purely highsec players. The voting, or lack thereof, is proof by purely highsec dwellers.

Eve is huge, go explore. Why make any specific area a fixed place for yourself ?

Next time, cast a CSM vote. Join a decent Corporation that is not focused on Highsec only, or Nullsec only. Do the latter and you end-up throwing stones. That's something that people in glass houses should not do.

o7
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2012-09-03 11:37:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:
I do agree with his signature though...

EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...


Why would we value peoples opinions on EVE if they don't care enough to vote?



Its probably to do with null sec alliance power bloc voting as apposed to high sec individual votes.

Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk

Din Chao
#470 - 2012-09-03 12:12:18 UTC
Rats wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Anslo wrote:
I do agree with his signature though...

EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...


Why would we value peoples opinions on EVE if they don't care enough to vote?



Its probably to do with null sec alliance power bloc voting as apposed to high sec individual votes.

Tal


Oh, you mean like how all my friends tell me that not voting means my voice isn't heard, meanwhile the only possible outcome is between two virtually identical parties/candidates? What's that like? ;)
William Walker
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#471 - 2012-09-03 12:15:54 UTC
For highsec how about having a few people from each FW race step forward and then they choose amongst those people a select few that will represent them. Otherwise I see no possibility for unison within highsec.

ヽ(⌒∇⌒)ノ へ(゜∇、°)へ (◕‿◕✿)

Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2012-09-03 12:19:02 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:


I would however go as far to say that the residents of Nullsec have far more interest in the game than purely highsec players. The voting, or lack thereof, is proof by purely highsec dwellers.



What a load of old cobblers.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#473 - 2012-09-03 12:33:14 UTC
Sabrina Solette wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:


I would however go as far to say that the residents of Nullsec have far more interest in the game than purely highsec players. The voting, or lack thereof, is proof by purely highsec dwellers.



What a load of old cobblers.


I agree.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#474 - 2012-09-03 12:46:42 UTC
This just in: nullsec players aren't allowed to have individual opinions.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Frying Doom
#475 - 2012-09-03 12:48:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This just in: nullsec players aren't allowed to have individual opinions.

Shocking!!

Umm quick question did they used to?Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2012-09-03 12:50:04 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This just in: nullsec players aren't allowed to have individual opinions.

Shocking!!

Umm quick question did they used to?Big smile

No. Those of us who live on the outer edges of the galaxy hear Sansha Kuvakei in our sleep. He tells us who to vote for in the CSM elections.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Frying Doom
#477 - 2012-09-03 12:52:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This just in: nullsec players aren't allowed to have individual opinions.

Shocking!!

Umm quick question did they used to?Big smile

No. Those of us who live on the outer edges of the galaxy hear Sansha Kuvakei in our sleep. He tells us who to vote for in the CSM elections.

Atta boy, keep that rumor going. Personally I thought that was one of my better ones Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#478 - 2012-09-03 13:13:39 UTC
The CSM is represented by the majority opinion. That is a fact. If the majority opinion was "carebear oriented" the majority of the CSM would be "carebear" represented.

The simple truth is that the majority of Eve players want to fly around in space ships and blow each other up.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Frying Doom
#479 - 2012-09-03 13:18:03 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
The CSM is represented by the majority opinion. That is a fact. If the majority opinion was "carebear oriented" the majority of the CSM would be "carebear" represented.

The simple truth is that the majority of Eve players want to fly around in space ships and blow each other up.

I love the use of the word fact.

As we have no data on the majority of EvE players only the minority, the word fact might be a bit strong here. The simple truth is ship get blown up in eve, people make ships in eve and some others buy and sell stuff, not to mention the people who mine gas for drugs, PI for POSs and all the things go on in EvE.

It is rather strange to say the Majority, when the majority do not use the forums, vote or do anything external to the game we can easily find.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#480 - 2012-09-03 13:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
So because we have a good amount of people involved, we should not want more, oh and do these games have player elected councils?
Eh, no. Because we have a good amount of people involved, we obviously have very effective campaigns in place to involve players who want to be involved. Pointing to the rest as some kind of failure to engage is plain dishonest.

Quote:
Nice blanket statement, they have always done so well in the world.
Then maybe you should stop employing them…

Quote:
You mean like the statistic that in the CSM 7 Election only 16.63% of the accounts voted, no seems like the statistics are saying that only a minority voted.
No, the statistical theory that shows that as small a sample as 1‰ can correctly reflect the thoughts and opinions of the population at large.

Quote:
No obviously I mean better or I wouldn't have said it.
The problem is that your ideas for “better” all seem to fall into the category of things that people filter out automatically these days, whereas what they've been doing has so far produced almost unparalleled engagement.

Quote:
I love the use of the word fact.

As we have no data on the majority of EvE players only the minority, the word fact might be a bit strong here.
One fact we have is that PvP is the most liked activity in EVE, enjoyed by the vast majority of players, which seems to correspond rather well with the representation on the CSM…