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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#201 - 2012-09-02 00:47:31 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
I still don't understand why each section of space does not get a mandatory 2 members of the CSM each.
Possibly because it's not particularly needed and because the issues that need a large amount of attention will be reflected in how easily people can rally around representatives that speak to those issues.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#202 - 2012-09-02 00:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
<----- Tinfoil hat has receding hairline Ugh need Faction one from NEX which covers entire head Idea

Lord Zim wrote:

I think his :tinfoil: hat wasn't made from OTEC-brand technetium, but rather the lower-quality, faked reacted technetium. Surprisingly, that serves to make the government mind reading/controlling rays more effective, rather than less.

It's a funny coincidence. vOv


You making fun of my chrome dome? Cant wait until CCP releases hats in NEX & the outcry for tinfoil hats becomes deafening Lol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#203 - 2012-09-02 00:51:07 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
I still don't understand why each section of space does not get a mandatory 2 members of the CSM each.

I suspect it's against the "spirit" of Eve to have such strict limits.

Also, it is extremely complicated and arbitrary. What do you define as a "section" of space? Security status divisions? Regions? With so much conflict going on everywhere, how do you know that a particular candidate from a region is actually speaking for that region? Should suicide gankers, ninja salvagers, miners, and mission runners be represented by the same "hisec" candidate? What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated) and the hisec representative ends up representing gankers and ninja salvagers?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#204 - 2012-09-02 00:56:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
I still don't understand why each section of space does not get a mandatory 2 members of the CSM each.
Possibly because it's not particularly needed and because the issues that need a large amount of attention will be reflected in how easily people can rally around representatives that speak to those issues.



IMHO it is needed and I've heard it echoed & grimbled on often enough in HI SEC they we are unrepresented.
CSM is viewed as a for NULL entity everywhere I go. It has a definite image problem.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#205 - 2012-09-02 00:58:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
It's a funny coincidence. vOv
Nah. The funny coincidence is that the tech bottleneck went live at the end of 2009. In 2010, the CSM chairman was from Veto, which as we all know were heavily into owning all the tech moo… wait what?!

There seems to be something wrong with the proposed causality chain. Odd.


What about the previous bottle neck before the creation of CSM?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Frying Doom
#206 - 2012-09-02 00:59:42 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#207 - 2012-09-02 01:01:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Do you have another in mind? If not, apply Occam's Razor to the common problem of voter apathy.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#208 - 2012-09-02 01:05:07 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Yes but the popular vote we got don't work because its results are NOT representative. We need an electoral voting system in Eve

Electoral systems IRL are meant to bring balance to elections in which areas with too low population do not have enough say in things because they are so few
.


methinks your definition of electoral voting need better defining:
An electoral district (also known as a constituency, riding, ward, division, electoral area or electorate) is a distinct territorial subdivision for holding a separate election for one or more seats in a legislative body. Generally, only voters who reside within the geographical bounds of an electoral district (constituents) are permitted to vote in an election held there
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Frying Doom
#209 - 2012-09-02 01:07:45 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Do you have another in mind? If not, apply Occam's Razor to the common problem of voter apathy.

And the simplest answer is that the majority of players have no idea what a CSM is.

Central Space Museum maybe?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2012-09-02 01:08:35 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Given that they've whined incessantly about how "The CSM isn't representing us!!!" for quite a while now, I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that what's been demonstrated is that people in hisec don't care to vote, yet they still feel entitled to ***** and whine about how "the CSM doesn't contain the people we want it to contain" several months after the fact.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#211 - 2012-09-02 01:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Given that they've whined incessantly about how "The CSM isn't representing us!!!" for quite a while now, I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that what's been demonstrated is that people in hisec don't care to vote, yet they still feel entitled to ***** and whine about how "the CSM doesn't contain the people we want it to contain" several months after the fact.

And yet most of the people who use these forums are not Hi-sec residence. The number of people who use these forums are much like voting, rather small compared to the whole population of EvE.

I wonder if there is a correlation between using these forums and leaving Hi-sec Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-09-02 01:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Do you have another in mind? If not, apply Occam's Razor to the common problem of voter apathy.


voter apathy is a symptom not a cause.....

Frying Doom wrote:

And the simplest answer is that the majority of players have no idea what a CSM is.

Central Space Museum maybe?


is probably quite likely. Together with "All the options are equal so it doesn't matter" - equal can mean equally good, equally bad, or equally not representing them.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#213 - 2012-09-02 01:18:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:


I wonder if there is a correlation between using these forums and leaving Hi-sec Lol


Given how many people where caught unawares of Burn Jita that I talked to before & after it started I'd say most HI SEC residents don't troll post/read the forums.
Even with the Burn Jita banners in the starting screens many didn't notice it
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#214 - 2012-09-02 01:20:48 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
What about the previous bottle neck before the creation of CSM?
The previous bottleneck also failed to be represented by the CSM chair.

Quote:
IMHO it is needed and I've heard it echoed & grimbled on often enough in HI SEC they we are unrepresented.
…and pretty much nothing has been put forward to back that noise up. In short: what is lacking? What issues are left behind? What issues do they believe would be raised if the composition was different?

Quote:
CSM is viewed as a for NULL entity everywhere I go. It has a definite image problem.
Sure. Highseccers have a similar image problem: they are commonly viewed as having no idea what's going on around them and not knowing what they're talking about.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#215 - 2012-09-02 01:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Do you have another in mind? If not, apply Occam's Razor to the common problem of voter apathy.

And the simplest answer is that the majority of players have no idea what a CSM is.

Central Space Museum maybe?

I don't see a Central Space Museum mentioned on the login screen here, or here. If those were ineffective, what more should CCP do to inform people? Forum posts? Global Eve mails? Immersion-breaking ads in space or in CQ? A section in the tutorial about an event that happens once a year?

"Not informed" in Eve means "didn't arse himself to look it up when he ran across it" or "doesn't actually interact with people". Just like you can inform yourself about the best resist profile to use for your level 4 missions, or about the best way to avoid and discourage suicide ganks, you can also inform yourself about how the CSM works and who's running, then vote.

Yes, an information campaign that forces an overload of CSM awareness stuff onto all of Eve might solve some of this, but just like there are people who are surprised by balance changes because they don't bother to read the forums or by political shifts because they don't bother to read any Eve News at all, there will also always be people who simply don't bother to know about the CSM until it's too late -- at which point they start bitching about not being represented because of their own apathy.

Edit: no, seriously, one of those says "NO VOTES NERF BOATS". Choosing to ignore it and not vote is pretty much saying "I'm okay with being screwed over". Come on!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Frying Doom
#216 - 2012-09-02 01:36:45 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
What do you do if those miners and mission runners indeed don't care enough about voting (as they have demonstrated)

The only thing that has actually been demonstrated is that they have not voted, not their reasons for doing so.

Do you have another in mind? If not, apply Occam's Razor to the common problem of voter apathy.

And the simplest answer is that the majority of players have no idea what a CSM is.

Central Space Museum maybe?

I don't see a Central Space Museum mentioned on the login screen here, or here. If those were ineffective, what more should CCP do to inform people? Forum posts? Global Eve mails? Immersion-breaking ads in space or in CQ? A section in the tutorial about an event that happens once a year?

"Not informed" in Eve means "didn't arse himself to look it up when he ran across it" or "doesn't actually interact with people". Just like you can inform yourself about the best resist profile to use for your level 4 missions, or about the best way to avoid and discourage suicide ganks, you can also inform yourself about how the CSM works and who's running, then vote.

Yes, an information campaign that forces an overload of CSM awareness stuff onto all of Eve might solve some of this, but just like there are people who are surprised by balance changes because they don't bother to read the forums or by political shifts because they don't bother to read any Eve News at all, there will also always be people who simply don't bother to know about the CSM until it's too late -- at which point they start bitching about not being represented because of their own apathy.

Or maybe they have real lives. It is not a good point to make that casual players should have less involvement in the CSM because they don't have the time to research everything they come across and read the dev blogs and eve news as well.

There money is as good as those of hard core players and so are their complaints. Some people may just want to play the game but they should at least be educated as to what some things are like the CSM and why Dev Blogs are important.

As to immersion breaking ads in space, I see nothing wrong with bill boards in space. When I was a noob I used to sit there and watch them.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#217 - 2012-09-02 01:44:56 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:

methinks your definition of electoral voting need better defining:
An electoral district (also known as a constituency, riding, ward, division, electoral area or electorate) is a distinct territorial subdivision for holding a separate election for one or more seats in a legislative body. Generally, only voters who reside within the geographical bounds of an electoral district (constituents) are permitted to vote in an election held there


At-large elections are a thing. They are not undemocratic or unrepresentative. What is undemocratic and unrepresentative is gerrymandering to deprive active, involved voters of their voice because they support an agenda you dislike.

Quote:
Given how many people where caught unawares of Burn Jita that I talked to before & after it started I'd say most HI SEC residents don't troll post/read the forums.
Even with the Burn Jita banners in the starting screens many didn't notice it



When people can't be bothered to read the forums, can't be bothered to vote, can't be bothered to note all the rumors about a huge gankfest planned for a specific weekend, and can't be bothered to see the giant banner on start up saying "Jita is a shitstorm. You probably shouldn't go there", I think it is safe to say they are apathetic and disengaged. The fact that they refuse to become more so is not something CCP can fix by rearranging election rules.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2012-09-02 01:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

If those were ineffective, what more should CCP do to inform people? Forum posts?

Global Eve mails?


No its only the sad fucks that read the boards,

email reaches everyone except people who chose to ignore it.

Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Immersion-breaking ads in space or in CQ?


Immersion breaking why?

Petrus Blackshell wrote:

A section in the tutorial about an event that happens once a year?


Only reaches a limited audience.

Petrus Blackshell wrote:

"Not informed" in Eve means "didn't arse himself to look it up when he ran across it" or "doesn't actually interact with people". Just like you can inform yourself about the best resist profile to use for your level 4 missions, or about the best way to avoid and discourage suicide ganks, you can also inform yourself about how the CSM works and who's running, then vote.


people inform themselves on those topics because they have an immediate problem to solve - they are dying and wish not to. voting isn't an immediate problem.

Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Yes, an information campaign that forces an overload of CSM awareness stuff onto all of Eve might solve some of this, but just like there are people who are surprised by balance changes because they don't bother to read the forums or by political shifts because they don't bother to read any Eve News at all, there will also always be people who simply don't bother to know about the CSM until it's too late -- at which point they start bitching about not being represented because of their own apathy.


The forums aren't part of the game, why the hell should people have to come here?

unawareness isn't apathy. Why the **** would you restrict (by implication) voting to people who play the game and not the meta game. Crikey you were whining about misplaced immersion breaking up there, but now you want people to log onto the 20th century internet to participate - FAIL.

Seriously in game is the best way to reach players. A button on the char select page "Place your CSM vote here" with the same prominence as we get when CCP actually want us to bother doing something. Make it a part of the game, not a part of the meta game.
Frying Doom
#219 - 2012-09-02 01:49:48 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I don't see a Central Space Museum mentioned on the login screen here, or here. If those were ineffective, what more should CCP do to inform people? Forum posts? Global Eve mails? Immersion-breaking ads in space or in CQ? A section in the tutorial about an event that happens once a year?


I almost missed that what has the Sansha got to go with the CSM, that is a stupid add it makes it look like the CSM is only for incursion runners, and again with the other one what is the council of stellar management. I have no shares in Stellar management, do you? Why would I care about a corp called Stellar management?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#220 - 2012-09-02 01:58:52 UTC
betoli wrote:
Seriously in game is the best way to reach players. A button on the char select page "Place your CSM vote here" with the same prominence as we get when CCP actually want us to bother doing something. Make it a part of the game, not a part of the meta game.

You mean like the big login banners, and the news items on the right of the character selection screens that nobody ever reads? (I miss them sometimes, too).

Unawareness is caused by apathy. "They wouldn't be so apathetic if only they were aware" is irrelevant if they are not willing to click a button and read a page of info on the CSM and its candidates. If someone is playing Eve like an instant-satisfaction single player game where they log on, do something for an immediate "win", then log off, and shut out everything longer term or having to do with the game community they're part of, they're bound to miss important non-short-term news: the CSM elections, Jita being a shitstorm, balance changes, etc. When things happen and take them by surprise, they really have nobody to blame other than themselves. The only way to reach people like this is via super-intrusive ads that might be ignored anyway, and just bother the rest of the playerbase.

I'm trying to give hisec players the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are legitimately handicapped by not communicating with others in a massively multiplayer game (who'd have thought?). So... how do you solve it? How do you let them all know to get off their asses and vote, so the CSM reflects the proper Eve demographics?

I, for one, don't see a way. That is why I'm being cynical.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)