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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#261 - 2012-07-02 13:49:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If WiS Exploration uses a 'Redshirt' model, then hardcore mode would be just fine.


I think you and I are on the same track. Cool

_ _
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#262 - 2012-07-02 13:53:34 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Some answers,

For me WiS is not something that only 0.0 players should benefit from. It should be available to all who wish to participate.
Rewards should be justified though. The more you danger you put yourself in, the more rewards you should reap.

The WiS ecosystem should tie in with FiS gameplay, this shouldn't be some stand-alone gameplay avenue that doesn't effect pilot-based only players. Manufacturing could play a part in this for example.

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)



There would be no interesting perma-death questions. The only questions would be "Why can't capsuleers use the same tech every DUST grunt has access to?" and "Why the **** would any capsuleer risk their immortal life in these non-vital suicide missions, when they could hire others to do it for them?". Basicly any attempt to bring perma-death in to it would just bring up questions how stupid the whole idea is taking in to account the EVE lore and basic common sense.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#263 - 2012-07-02 13:55:26 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Some answers,

For me WiS is not something that only 0.0 players should benefit from. It should be available to all who wish to participate.
Rewards should be justified though. The more you danger you put yourself in, the more rewards you should reap.

The WiS ecosystem should tie in with FiS gameplay, this shouldn't be some stand-alone gameplay avenue that doesn't effect pilot-based only players. Manufacturing could play a part in this for example.

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)



Well, as long as anyone can come and blow your ship behind your back, the only place you will be safe is 0.0. Conversely, risking to be blown by *any* bypassing neutral should be rewarded accordingly. As long as we talk about effective risk and not alleged risk, of course.


As for "perma-death", I'd rather prefer the drone clones. They can be expended, can be fitted, and can be used as a price tag to measure risk vs reward (expensive clones/fittings?).

Perma-death should only be used for crime punishment and any law-abiding peaceful denizen should be safe from it... but then there are middle roads between "die and resurrect unscathed" and "die forever". Time ago, I already thought of a scheme so poddign someone with a bounty on him would erase a random fraction of his skill points, disablign whatever skills where affected until he retrained the missing points. Think of "mind transfer scrambling" technology for the security forces.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#264 - 2012-07-02 13:57:09 UTC
Just for reference sakes, if we went for your actual avatar use, I would not be voting for a permadeath.
Maybe just a bad limp in the CQ. Blink

Team Genesis
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#265 - 2012-07-02 13:58:28 UTC
BTW, on drone clones:

Drone clones Q & A

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#266 - 2012-07-02 13:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
Lapine Davion wrote:
See: Dust 514 Cloning tech.


Entirely different tech. We are not DUSTies. If we get killed outside of the capsule, our only recourse is a backup ("soft") clone that only contains memories (hint: SP) up to the point the backup was made - a time-consuming backup given the need to not destroy the brain in the process.

Furthermore, #2 is out entirely as well, unless there are some pretty drastic changes to CONCORD policies. Having two or more simultaneously active clones is highly illegal and a "crime of the highest magnitude". To avoid this you'd need to "shut down" the clone inside the capsule, leaving your ship entirely defenseless. That really sounds like an absolutely wonderful idea to me.

#3 is the most sensible: given the option of dying and losing your memories, causing CONCORD to crawl up your ass even more than they do already with all of the monitoring equipment stashed in our ships and capsules, or sending some expendable peons, what is any capsuleer with a brain going to do? That's right - they're going to use the redshirts.

On the other hand, #3 also defeats the purpose of it being our own avatar doing things, which begs the question: if, god forbid, CCP decides to design this feature with the intent of remaining consistent with EVE's already-existing and long-established Prime Fiction, what the hell is the point of this kind of WiS content?

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#267 - 2012-07-02 14:00:08 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Just for reference sakes, if we went for your actual avatar use, I would not be voting for a permadeath.
Maybe just a bad limp in the CQ. Blink


"It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. "

Limp? Time for a fresh clone.

_ _
CoLe Blackblood
the united
#268 - 2012-07-02 14:01:12 UTC
When I was first scoping Eve out one of the biggest detractors from the game was the lack of a full 3d avatar. I bit the bullet and tried the game and loved it, realizing that the ability to walk around and visit places as an avatar would have been nice, but just not in the current incarnation of Eve.

WiS was a bump in the road and CCP had wonderful intentions. My vision of it was to bring the cold heartedness of Eve into a more personal level and I think that coincides with CCP's idea, they just had trouble with the implementation and the lack of resources to handle DUST, more spaceships for Eve and WiS. In the end they did a smart thing and plugged along with the ships aspect and I think they should continue pumping out new and awesome ships for us space geeks.

WiS is still a possibility but I would like to see it done right. Maybe it never happens but I hope so for CCP's sake. This is their business and we love their game, everybody should have their cake and eat it. Someday we all should be able to walk into a station, go to the cantina and beat the S outta some spacenoob, run from his buddies back to our docking bay, undock and wait for the fireworks once they do the same.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#269 - 2012-07-02 14:01:48 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)


just say they now use the sleeper dust tech and you are good. Or alternatively handle it as you wouldn't have an upgreaded med clone, e.g lose a few SP.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#270 - 2012-07-02 14:05:56 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
See: Dust 514 Cloning tech.


Entirely different tech. We are not DUSTies. If we get killed outside of the capsule, our only recourse is a backup ("soft") clone that only contains memories (hint: SP) up to the point the backup was made - a time-consuming backup given the need to not destroy the brain in the process.

Furthermore, #2 is out entirely as well, unless there are some pretty drastic changes to CONCORD policies. Having two or more simultaneously active clones is highly illegal and a "crime of the highest magnitude". To avoid this you'd need to "shut down" the clone inside the capsule, leaving your ship entirely defenseless. That really sounds like an absolutely wonderful idea to me.

#3 is the most sensible: given the option of dying and losing your memories, causing CONCORD to crawl up your ass even more than they do already with all of the monitoring equipment stashed in our ships and capsules, or sending some expendable peons, what is any capsuleer with a brain going to do? That's right - they're going to use the redshirts.

On the other hand, #3 also defeats the purpose of it being our own avatar doing things, which begs the question: if, god forbid, CCP decides to design this feature with the intent of remaining consistent with EVE's already-existing and long-established Prime Fiction, what the hell is the point of this kind of WiS content?


It sounds like the technology is advancing faster than the laws. This could be interesting. Maybe a chance of taking a security status hit while in empire space. But, you usually don't see CONCORD ships crawling through unregistered deadspaces unless your ship sends out its automated 'ah kitten i'm being shot by a capsuleer' distress beacon.

Our ship bound clone should be 'suspended' since we'll be focused on our walking clone anyway. There just needs to be some sort of indicator when our ship is being attacked, unless its docked into the site somehow.

Docking sounds too safe. Under attack at an exploration site? Just dock with it.

_ _
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#271 - 2012-07-02 14:12:07 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
See: Dust 514 Cloning tech.


Entirely different tech. We are not DUSTies. If we get killed outside of the capsule, our only recourse is a backup ("soft") clone that only contains memories (hint: SP) up to the point the backup was made - a time-consuming backup given the need to not destroy the brain in the process.

Furthermore, #2 is out entirely as well, unless there are some pretty drastic changes to CONCORD policies. Having two or more simultaneously active clones is highly illegal and a "crime of the highest magnitude". To avoid this you'd need to "shut down" the clone inside the capsule, leaving your ship entirely defenseless. That really sounds like an absolutely wonderful idea to me.

#3 is the most sensible: given the option of dying and losing your memories, causing CONCORD to crawl up your ass even more than they do already with all of the monitoring equipment stashed in our ships and capsules, or sending some expendable peons, what is any capsuleer with a brain going to do? That's right - they're going to use the redshirts.

On the other hand, #3 also defeats the purpose of it being our own avatar doing things, which begs the question: if, god forbid, CCP decides to design this feature with the intent of remaining consistent with EVE's already-existing and long-established Prime Fiction, what the hell is the point of this kind of WiS content?


It sounds like the technology is advancing faster than the laws. This could be interesting. Maybe a chance of taking a security status hit while in empire space. But, you usually don't see CONCORD ships crawling through unregistered deadspaces unless your ship sends out its automated 'ah kitten i'm being shot by a capsuleer' distress beacon.

Our ship bound clone should be 'suspended' since we'll be focused on our walking clone anyway. There just needs to be some sort of indicator when our ship is being attacked, unless its docked into the site somehow.

Docking sounds too safe. Under attack at an exploration site? Just dock with it.


Unless of course the site itself could be attacked.

Team Genesis
RAP ACTION HERO
#272 - 2012-07-02 14:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: RAP ACTION HERO
Malcanis wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Some answers,

For me WiS is not something that only 0.0 players should benefit from. It should be available to all who wish to participate.
Rewards should be justified though. The more you danger you put yourself in, the more rewards you should reap.

The WiS ecosystem should tie in with FiS gameplay, this shouldn't be some stand-alone gameplay avenue that doesn't effect pilot-based only players. Manufacturing could play a part in this for example.

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)



If WiS Exploration uses a 'Redshirt' model, then hardcore mode would be just fine.

Otherwise we'll just use that magic DUST tech tyvm.


I think we are capsuleers, as in pilots, our brains are wired differently, we need to hold an exponentially larger store of knowledge to pilot ships than ground grunts working with small-arms, therefore we cannot use DUST tech.

and a big no to instanced 100% safe avatar-based isk grinding. hell no

vitoc erryday
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-07-02 14:29:09 UTC
Some thoughts:

When exploring sites, dust 514 drop suits should be used.

If you decide to stab someone, you could get an aggression timer (15min?) where anyone can shoot you (maybe also some kind of NPC so that it will add some risk, but no absolute destruction) as well as a security status loss (not in null), maybe inability to dock. So if you were to decide to shoot someone in the face, your ship could get blown up by others and you would be stuck. You could still have your overview so you would know when its time to bail. If a "drone" is used, press a button and you would be back in the ship, but lose everything you didn't bring back to the "docking area". Risk vs reward.


In stations some areas could be "weapon free" but in those that aren't, you and a couple of friends can gank (Those concord turrets/drones obviously take time to deploy) but still get the normal repercussion per sec status and rules decided by station owners (null). Gank could be fought by fitting shield extenders or armor plates.

Pretty much think FiS but in stations.

Also some idea: If you were for some reason were to explore a planet, you might just stumble into a bunny match :)

But like so many have said already, a new kind of clone with only dust skills would be the most sensible approach into how WiS exploration should work.
Acot Voth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-07-02 14:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Acot Voth
Quote:
We do have various ideas regarding death within a site as there will indeed be dangers for you to overcome, including other players. (if we, Team Avatar, get our way)

Here are some:

1. Death will be like the standard pod kill death but then that leads to the issue where your ship is still docked at the site.
2. You enter sites with a clone rather than your actual avatar.
3. You enter sites with crew members rather than clones.

These are just a few as there are multiple ways we can address this issue, but the actual designing of these features is obviously still to be started in earnest.

On a little side note, the posts I've seen so far in regards to pvp only mention the actual combat, but the sandbox nature of this WiS gameplay could also allow for strangers in sites to work together, rather than annihilate each other with extreme violence. This could lead to some interesting initial stand offs.


Maybe our bodies stay in our pods but our exact AI duplicates go into the ship Matrix or Surrogates style. I think it's important that what we send into the site looks like our character. If it's our crew we won't be as invested as if it feels like our real character. Death needs to have consequences to maybe being linked up to a robo self is mentally very taxing, and dying as our robo self is very traumatizing to our mental state. That could result in many different consequences to our podded self. Maybe it's so taxing that it leaves unconscious and unable to fly your ship for a few minutes leaving it entirely vulnerable to attack.

It seems like in all of the Aliens movies someone gets hurt and ends up handicapping the crew as they move about. Maybe once your health drops to a certain point your actions become limited and you must be carried back to the ship for some healing (or else you die within X amount of time). In this state you can still do something like shoot a pistol or a couple other minor things but the crew is now slowed down by hauling you. Also in this state if you take more damage you will also die.
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#275 - 2012-07-02 14:46:20 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Unless of course the site itself could be attacked.


If I hear the distance pounding of artillery on the site, the floor starts shaking and sections of the walls starting breaking off revealing the cold vacuum of space while an urgent alarm blares in my crippled and failing suit that my ship is now vulnerable...

I'll buy you a case of your favorite beverage.

_ _
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#276 - 2012-07-02 14:49:22 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
When exploring sites, dust 514 drop suits should be used.


+1 to open the DUST skill tree and equipment to capsuleers for space based exploration sites.
+1,000 if I can land on a planet and use them there as well.
+10,000 If I can hire mercenaries to accompany me.

_ _
Irya Boone
The Scope
#277 - 2012-07-02 15:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Irya Boone
or you can imagine if you die in the sation you get simply eject from it .....with your ship with hull at 1%

AND exploring suits like DUST of COURSEEEEE !!!
would like to explore sleepers strcutures ...

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#278 - 2012-07-02 15:18:25 UTC
If we use option 2 (soft clone, drone clone) there could be a module in your ship that makes and delivers these clones. You would target lock the structure you want to explore and activate the module. If it did not have a clone stored, it makes one. Either way, it then delivers it to the structure. Making a new clone would cost a unit of transcranial microcontrollers, synthetic synapses, and biomass. Death comes with a cost. If you make it out alive, you do not need to have the clone maker make a new one next time.

Purely social areas would tie into FiS content. Entire null sec alliances have failed and collapsed as a result of social interaction. Its hard to imagine a bigger tie-in to FiS.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#279 - 2012-07-02 15:19:41 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
See: Dust 514 Cloning tech.


Entirely different tech. We are not DUSTies. If we get killed outside of the capsule, our only recourse is a backup ("soft") clone that only contains memories (hint: SP) up to the point the backup was made - a time-consuming backup given the need to not destroy the brain in the process.

Furthermore, #2 is out entirely as well, unless there are some pretty drastic changes to CONCORD policies. Having two or more simultaneously active clones is highly illegal and a "crime of the highest magnitude". To avoid this you'd need to "shut down" the clone inside the capsule, leaving your ship entirely defenseless. That really sounds like an absolutely wonderful idea to me.

#3 is the most sensible: given the option of dying and losing your memories, causing CONCORD to crawl up your ass even more than they do already with all of the monitoring equipment stashed in our ships and capsules, or sending some expendable peons, what is any capsuleer with a brain going to do? That's right - they're going to use the redshirts.

On the other hand, #3 also defeats the purpose of it being our own avatar doing things, which begs the question: if, god forbid, CCP decides to design this feature with the intent of remaining consistent with EVE's already-existing and long-established Prime Fiction, what the hell is the point of this kind of WiS content?


The obvious resolution to this dilemma is to update the lore to say whatever we need it to say for the sake of good gameplay.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#280 - 2012-07-02 15:21:03 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Some answers,

For me WiS is not something that only 0.0 players should benefit from. It should be available to all who wish to participate.
Rewards should be justified though. The more you danger you put yourself in, the more rewards you should reap.

The WiS ecosystem should tie in with FiS gameplay, this shouldn't be some stand-alone gameplay avenue that doesn't effect pilot-based only players. Manufacturing could play a part in this for example.

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)




the idea mentioned earlier that if you die off your ship then your clone is activated sounds best to me. I would vote that your ship be marked as abandoned in that scenario. if you don't get back to the site in time, someone might just find and fly off with your ship instead of bothering with the site. which would make people consider risk vs reward in their exploration site fits.

also, depending on the exploration site. maybe you find a "damaged medical bay" and with enough skills you can hack to activate the cloning bay and install a clone or something. the possibilities are endless. one thing is for sure though, if done right, EVE would be on it's path to being the ultimate SciFi MMO