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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Protheroe
UMEC
#721 - 2012-06-22 03:50:34 UTC
I think it's worth noting that back when the mechanics that made this possible were first announced, there were several responses to the Dev Blog that pointed out that this could happen. There were developer replies throughout that thread, and some issues that were raised were acted on. This one apparently was not for some reason, despite the potential seriousness of it. One could perhaps draw the conclusion from that that CCP didn't regard this as an issue and thought it would be fair play.

Clearly their reaction now shows that they do not think it's fair play, but they can't claim that this wasn't on their radar without acknowledging that they ignored the player feedback that they asked for.

Here are some of the relevant replies from early May, nearly two weeks before Inferno was deployed:

Kusum Fawn wrote:
Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)

now fit that punisher with a market manipulated module, Republic Fleet Thermic plating est cost 100k isk, set price on Placid market 100 million isk, In heavy sov upgrades system market cost cheaper, it currently costs me (a nonFW player but with good regional faction standings) approx 1 million to place module on the market, with no buy orders or competing modules market price is now 100 million for a cheap module.

Destroying a punisher with tech 1 fitting:gained LP =(450k isk - 312k isk + 100 million isk +0)/1000 = 100,138 LP
(overheat a lowslot mod for a few seconds to encourage the item being destroyed)

Punisher has 4 lowslots, add four of those modules.
now make that module worth one billion, or ten billion ....
Kusum Fawn wrote:
so id have to put several obscene priced orders in a few regions to get the full benifit of this? im sure there are a few people in some of the nullsec areas that would happily do this with me if we consorted with alts. any module that has no real use (and there are quite a few) can be put up with minimal isk outlay.

It doesn't matter, what buy/sell order you use. Even Jita sees massive manipulation for items all the time.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I'm hoping that CCP didn't do something dumb and exploitable. They are opening up a very nasty can of worms by basing anything on actual market values, and I think there's something terribly wrong with the "ladder" system and the enhanced killmails, as well.

In other words, they best know what they're doing, or this is going to explode in their faces.
Orisa Medeem wrote:
By destroying a ship with 100m on cargohold you get 10k LP plus about 50m in loot. Turning these 10k LP into more than 50m may be hard right now, but after the changes are implemented it isn't clear to me that this is not possible.
Protheroe wrote:
I also agree that the LP payout formula for ship kills looks like it could potentially be exploitable at the moment, though that depends on how the terms in the formula are calculated, which isn't explained in the blog.

As Kusum Fawn said, if the 'Market Value' term for fitted and transported items is based on averages of actual market values, then it would be possible to pick some low value, rarely traded item, purchase all the available units in every region (not difficult for a cheap unpopular item), relist them all at massively inflated prices, wait for the new price to begin affecting the Market Average (perhaps trading the item a few times between alts), and then put the item on a ship in a rival faction and destroy it repeatedly to farm LP. If this kind of trick would require large amounts of ISK and organisation then it could perhaps be ignored, but if the formula applies to the market value of every item in the game then this would be trivially easy to do. The problem could be lessened by making the formula more opaque or introducing complicated terms to exclude outlier prices, but as long as the price is in some way tied to actual market values and covers a broad range of items, there will inevitably be holes in it and people will find a way to exploit them.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#722 - 2012-06-22 03:55:35 UTC
Cordially Yours wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?

a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion

Line crossed.


Oh ****, Weaselior, you pissed off Cordially Yours. It is most certain on now.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#723 - 2012-06-22 03:57:31 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out


The exploit was goons playing the game in a way that doesn't involve whining to CCP to alter game mechanics in our favor. Same as always.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
R0me0 Charl1e
Easy A Industries
#724 - 2012-06-22 03:59:08 UTC
Finally caught up with this thread and all I can say is good job Goonswarm!

Now it's back to beta testing DUST 514.
gulftobay
Mesotopia
#725 - 2012-06-22 04:03:29 UTC
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#726 - 2012-06-22 04:05:27 UTC
Posting my jelly hate.


Puts my sub-billion, lonesome endeavors in perspective.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#727 - 2012-06-22 04:06:46 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?


banning NPC corps from the forums

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#728 - 2012-06-22 04:06:53 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Nikodiemus wrote:
The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.

I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^


We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering.


They won't remember, though, since it doesn't fit into the narrative of goons actively trying to destroy Eve.

They never remember the fact that goons got supercaps nerfed, despite the fact that we have dozens and they were a "Win Game" button. Goon higher ups profiting madly off of Tech are actively trying to get that nerfed too, so other corps can get rich off of it too, but of course, they don't think about that either. Nearly every situation like this has goons at the forefront warning CCP, but again, no one care.

Goons are intent on destroying Eve, contrary evidence be damned.



I like to think of the Goons as exuberant playtesters.

"Hey. Hey CCP. This thing over here might be _REALLY_ broken." say the Goons

"Ignore the man behind the curtain." says CCP

"Just saying bro." says the Goons

*Goons massively exploit broken mechanic they warned CCP about*

"Hey we told you so!" ~ Goons laughing as they roll in ISK

"That's a bad naughty Goon! Naughty! ... Bad Goon! Zimmer! Go to your room!", says CCP.

"It's Mittens! He's got a Kung Fu grip on CCP's nether region peculiars!", salivate the Mad Foil Hatters. ( That'd be a nice corp name. I'll have to snag that.)

In the end something broken gets fixed, the conspiracy nuts get some well needed and cathartic distress, and Goons roll in yet more money with which to provide the rest of us with "Emergent Gameplay".

Win-win-win?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#729 - 2012-06-22 04:09:16 UTC
Quaaid wrote:
Posting my jelly hate.


Puts my sub-billion, lonesome endeavors in perspective.


We applaud all efforts, no matter how small, to defraud the common pubbie of his isk.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
gulftobay
Mesotopia
#730 - 2012-06-22 04:10:55 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?


banning NPC corps from the forums


Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.

I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance.
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#731 - 2012-06-22 04:11:26 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?

Nothing?

It's market manipulation, combined with currency exchange, combined with insurance fraud. None of these things by themselves are exploits. Combined together... they're still not exploits. If every intermediate action is legal, the final result is also legal. Moreover, while five trillion is a lot on a personal level, in the long run the effect of this will be smoothed out within a month or two. Twenty, thirty trillion isk? That would be a different story. But in the end, FW was changed to prevent this from happening, thanks to the very people who pulled it off.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#732 - 2012-06-22 04:12:51 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?


banning NPC corps from the forums


Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.

I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance.

Your money and isk is just as good

Your opinions however...

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#733 - 2012-06-22 04:15:35 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.


I plex my accounts so it's anywhere from $17.95 a month or higher if the plex were originally purchased in GBP/EUR

so yes

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#734 - 2012-06-22 04:23:36 UTC
Soooooooooooooooo what to do with all that money?

Might I suggest going to all the market hubs and buying all the materials, then start building a load of titans.

Granted the training time would probably be pretty brutal for every 2 month old character who just got into their first drake blob. It'd be easier to just tell all your carrier pilots to train Fighters 5 and get a pile of Nyxes.

Apo Lyptica wrote:
OMG BURGER KING HAS BACON SUNDAYS ERRREY BUDDY GO BUY ONE
You can't mix salty and sugary flavors that's just gross.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#735 - 2012-06-22 04:25:16 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.


I plex my accounts so it's anywhere from $17.95 a month or higher if the plex were originally purchased in GBP/EUR

so yes

How many accounts do you plex? I assume the other poster has 1 account subbed.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#736 - 2012-06-22 04:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?

Nothing?

It's market manipulation, combined with currency exchange, combined with insurance fraud. None of these things by themselves are exploits. Combined together... they're still not exploits. If every intermediate action is legal, the final result is also legal. Moreover, while five trillion is a lot on a personal level, in the long run the effect of this will be smoothed out within a month or two. Twenty, thirty trillion isk? That would be a different story. But in the end, FW was changed to prevent this from happening, thanks to the very people who pulled it off.


Which is funny cause ANYTHING YOU DO IN THE GAME can be under this umbrella and CCP cant do jack.
Its funny how theyve lost control of their own game BY THEIR OWN RULES

lol

Hell, if I was them, Id be sitting back and laughing my ass off too.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#737 - 2012-06-22 04:30:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
How many accounts do you plex? I assume the other poster has 1 account subbed.

three

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#738 - 2012-06-22 04:31:18 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out


The exploit was goons playing the game in a way that doesn't involve whining to CCP to alter game mechanics in our favor. Same as always.


You are really a terrible propagandist and give a good name to sub-par posters - even from Goon. Try harder drone.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2012-06-22 04:31:38 UTC
"BabyDegren" wrote:
Probably not the place to say it, and I know I'll catch heat for it...but god damn I love Goonfleet.


My second post on the illustrious Eve-O forums, during the time of the ice interdiction.

This is on another level entirely. FUCKIN LU' YOU, DAWGS

Hello, hello again.
Samej Arkanus
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#740 - 2012-06-22 04:33:01 UTC
Confirming Aryth is the reincarnation of Dr. James Moriarty.