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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
Exakt Kla'erlepi
Brave Empire
Brave United
#701 - 2012-06-22 03:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Exakt Kla'erlepi
CONTINUED FROM MY FIRST POST:

9. To confirm this, we ran several tests. We would manipulate the price of an item with a 90 day volume of roughly 5-10 items across Eve, meaning the shittiest, worst 5% bonus to electronic attack ship damage implant we could find.(this is not the actual item, the actual item was even more worthless) Specifically, we would cycle billions of ISK worth of orders to ourselves and create massive volume in said item. CCP duly confirmed their pricing update script’s existence by taking a couple of Fridays to launch the CCP Value of said implants to all time highs. The result was not perfect, but it was more than sufficient to do what was needed.

Here it is clearly stated that the Goons conducted tests and found the results not perfect but still viable to move toward their goal(s).

10. From here, it was child’s play to locate a completely ******, unused item from the FW Loyalty store and jack up the CCP price by repeatedly buying the product at inflated prices in some untraveled galactic shithole.

Here we can clearly see how they proceeded at this point.

11. Once prices updated, we were able to purchase LP at 81 ISK / LP.

Here we can see the result they have achieved

12. You can see evidence of our dark work throughout the economy in Eve. Open up the market graphs in Jita and take a look at any given implant. Every single one of them will be going off a cliff because we were routinely slamming thousands into buys. At 81 ISK per LP, practically any price is a profit. Of course, we didn’t stop at implants; if you’re holding Mechanical Engineering or Minmatar Starship Engineering datacores, you have our condolences as we roll around in literal Scrooge McDuck towers full of your isk. If we were just a little bit prone to hitting and running, everything related to FW LP would be in the gutter. Fortunately, we are patient and beatific overlords. Numerous publord superstars have taken massive losses as we slam buys to nothing, then erect gigantic, unassailable walls of sells at a price that ensures that any stock held by anyone is without value. This last part has mostly been done because we can.

Here they are clearly standing that the exploit that they have used can actually be proven by actual facts. They are even stating that they could abuse the exploit because they felt "they could do so".

13. The goal was to make a bit of profit. and figure out how to fix it long term. CCP was informed and they moved quickly to address the issue. The party came to an immediate end after the T5 cashout occured. So this is over, and you will no longer be able to do this. If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down.

Here they are stating that it was for the "greater good". They are stating that CCP has fixed it and also clearly state that nobody else will be able to do so again and that they actually profit from it and that now CCP is closely watching the FW system and that if anyone else finds an exploit, there will be consequences. The closing statement in this paragraph also clearly points how just how much they have profited from it.


CONCLUSION:
There is a multitude of facts that shows that the participants of this event knew beforehand of a possible exploit, that they have run simulations stating it was in fact a very plausible exploit, that they have verified it within the live environment of TQ, then exploited it even if they have reported the bug to CCP, that they intentionally tried to break it again after the first fix and that they again profited from it, they clearly state that the manipulated the system for their own goal(s) and that now CCP is watching everybody else who could find an exploit in the FW and promptly report it and not abuse and may face consequences.

Now, I work in the game industry and I know that this couldn't necessarily be caught by the QA team, they aren't enough members and no game devs and publishers has 10,000 testers. The issue here is that the exploit of the game mechanics was found before the launch of Inferno, that the Goons didn't warn CCP before the launch, where CCP could have run a simulation just like the Goons did and seen the flaw and fixed it to a more manageable point. Now also, this is not emergent gameplay it is using a game mechanic that did not work as intended therefore an exploit. As per the rules of CCP on exploits, I really hope they uphold the rules, some may face bans and other reprimands.
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#702 - 2012-06-22 03:31:17 UTC
I'm gay.
gulftobay
Mesotopia
#703 - 2012-06-22 03:31:22 UTC
Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#704 - 2012-06-22 03:31:45 UTC
Nikodiemus wrote:
McOboe wrote:
Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt.


Once this exploit has been highlighted, what then is your aftergame? The damage has been done and it has the potential for serious economic damage.

The problem isn't that some goonies made money manipulating the mechanics CCP created; the problem is that the player base does not know what the economy will be like in EVE for future expansions. The worst thing will be players freezing their activity and trusting no one or no thing every time an expansion is announced.

Along with the market manipulation that will occur every time, CCP needs to change their mindset about the 'sandbox', from anarchist to responsible stakeholder. The NPC and CCP need to take the initiative of a real and responsible government and provide the 'Sandbox' with simple regulations and accountable regulators.

The sandbox fails when there is not a parent or lifesaver telling us we are drowning our children/players.


EVE is a scary place

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Hrothgar Nilsson
#705 - 2012-06-22 03:32:13 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
i mean, if sreegs finds the jewbal in unfortunate error of breaking the rules/using an exploit and doing so with the express intent of making money, one might say that jade did the same thing (although to a lesser degree) when he found the twitter message some two days ago.

....
Hrothgar Nilsson
#706 - 2012-06-22 03:32:54 UTC
Cordially Yours wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
using the word "Jew" is jew bashing

good to know

don't play stupid. referencing the protocols of the elders of zion is anti semitism of the worst sort.

What's a "jew haul"?
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#707 - 2012-06-22 03:33:21 UTC
Exakt Kla'erlepi wrote:
words


Were people banned for killing JFs with triple-web Vindicators before it was announced as an exploit?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#708 - 2012-06-22 03:34:22 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?


no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#709 - 2012-06-22 03:34:31 UTC
The Invisible Hand of the market is reaching for your wallet RIGHT NOWAttention

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Exakt Kla'erlepi
Brave Empire
Brave United
#710 - 2012-06-22 03:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Exakt Kla'erlepi
Now, yes the Goons did report it (late in my opinion), a ban may be a bit extreme, but there should some kind of reprimands/penalties.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#711 - 2012-06-22 03:38:31 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson please stop making antisemitic comments

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

gulftobay
Mesotopia
#712 - 2012-06-22 03:39:08 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?


no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere


Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws.

So, back to exploits..
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#713 - 2012-06-22 03:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
gulftobay wrote:
Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws.

So, back to exploits..


not really, it's just you and that Hrothgar guy cherry-picking every post to try to point out "antisemitism" or "exploits"

guess what, determining whether they were indeed exploiting is up to CCP and their investigation is based on more than forum posts

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Hrothgar Nilsson
#714 - 2012-06-22 03:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Richard Desturned wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson please stop making antisemitic comments

I'm making quotations of the use anti-Semitic terminology by members of your alliance.

I am Jewish.

Everything else was tl;dr. But the anti-Semetic "Jewbal", "Jew haul", "Jew gold" statements stuck out like a sore thumb.

It find it curious that making anti-Semitic statements on the EVE forums is OK with CCP, as they haven't said a whisper with regards to them.

This thread has been posted on by a CCP Dev, who no doubt saw the numerous anti-Semitic terms being used, and turned a blind eye.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#715 - 2012-06-22 03:40:07 UTC
Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#716 - 2012-06-22 03:40:39 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?


no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere


Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws.

So, back to exploits..

oh no when posting on a forum he did not adhere to strict rules of logical proof, which is a thing he was trying to do instead of mock a bad poster

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Exakt Kla'erlepi
Brave Empire
Brave United
#717 - 2012-06-22 03:44:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:


guess what, determining whether they were indeed exploiting is up to CCP and their investigation is based on more than forum posts


True, I don't have the raw data and numbers, but I do believe I did show how well every word and sentences in a public statement can show proofs of using an exploit in this case. Sadly, anyway that CCP may slice it, it may just look bad.

In any case we will see tears from a bunch of people from different roles/factions/corps/alliances.
InternetSpaceship
Perkone
Caldari State
#718 - 2012-06-22 03:45:25 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Nikodiemus wrote:
The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.

I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^


We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering.


They won't remember, though, since it doesn't fit into the narrative of goons actively trying to destroy Eve.

They never remember the fact that goons got supercaps nerfed, despite the fact that we have dozens and they were a "Win Game" button. Goon higher ups profiting madly off of Tech are actively trying to get that nerfed too, so other corps can get rich off of it too, but of course, they don't think about that either. Nearly every situation like this has goons at the forefront warning CCP, but again, no one care.

Goons are intent on destroying Eve, contrary evidence be damned.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.

InternetSpaceship
Perkone
Caldari State
#719 - 2012-06-22 03:46:47 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.

It's not an exploit guys.


Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :(


No it isn't. War dec mechanics changing or not, in null sec, you don't need a wardec to come attack us.

Bring your allies and let's have us a war.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.

Apo Lyptica
The AFK corp
#720 - 2012-06-22 03:49:25 UTC
OMG BURGER KING HAS BACON SUNDAYS ERRREY BUDDY GO BUY ONE