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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
Lost InCogneto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#681 - 2012-06-22 03:12:41 UTC
I say congratulations to goons for showing how CCP ruined Faction Wars wholeistic instead of listening to players wanting fixes to support pvp and faction war lore.

Good job - shame CCP
ModeratedToSilence
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#682 - 2012-06-22 03:14:12 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
If only someone had told CCP that it was a bad idea to make FW about ISK and mercenaries.

Surely CCP would have listened if they had been told they where makign a mistake.

SURELY !!!



Yeah if only those people had just carried on and shown via actions what they had been warning CCP about. Oh wait they did...
Hrothgar Nilsson
#683 - 2012-06-22 03:17:21 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?
McOboe
Viscosity
#684 - 2012-06-22 03:19:14 UTC
Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt.
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Triumvirate.
#685 - 2012-06-22 03:19:30 UTC
Exakt Kla'erlepi wrote:
Quote:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]


Ok, so here is the definition of Exploit in a video game. Now let's see what the Goons have said:

1. As we’ve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

Right there, they are admitting that they may have found a way to use the game mechanics to their advantage. Sure it was theoretical, but they have put it in practice.

2. The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining ‘expansion’ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions.

Again they are clearly stating that they may have found an exploit, still theoretical at this point, since there is no admission of using it.

3. The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Jewbal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up.

Here they are clearly stating that they ran simulations and that they did in fact show signs of an exploit.

4. When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: “/10000 will not save them”. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the player’s kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.

Here they clearly show that the initial setup of the game mechanics for FW in a devblog, it also clearly states that CCP thought it would prevent manipulation, therefore stating the way it was intended to work.

5. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards.

Here the Goons clearly state that the bug was in fact real once put to test in a live environment and that they used it to double their gains.

6. CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our “seed” LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction.

Now here we can see that CCP fixed it to a point where they thought it would work as intended. The Goons also stated that with the gain they have made, without reprimands following, they were able to manipulate the system of FW.

7. The “cost” in this equation was CCP’s own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break — CCP’s item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.

Here they are stating exactly what they did and how to use it to their advantages. By also stating they could "Generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost" is another sign that it is an exploit, that the system wasn't working as intended.

8. At this point, we had a problem: we still had not puzzled out CCP’s pricing update mechanics formula. Fortunately, we caught a break. A person tasked to figure out the CCP formula was able to come up with a fair guess at the CCP Price of a given item – a three month EVE wide moving average.

Here we can see that they had found how CCP fixed it and therefore acknowledging that the exploit was still possible.

TO BE CONTINUED IN A SECOND POST



Your wall of text is a bust. Pretty numbers and spaces may seem informative and logical to the masses but their facts don't hold water. Nice try though.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#686 - 2012-06-22 03:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?

a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#687 - 2012-06-22 03:20:08 UTC
35 pages in one day? My scroll finger got carpal tunnel syndrome.

So close...

Hrothgar Nilsson
#688 - 2012-06-22 03:21:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?

a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion

So Jew-bashing is OK on the EVE forums?
Cordially Yours
Doomheim
#689 - 2012-06-22 03:22:12 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?

a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion

Line crossed.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#690 - 2012-06-22 03:22:44 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Most people are myopic.
But not the Jewbal.

What's a 'Jewbal'?

a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion

So Jew-bashing is OK on the EVE forums?


see my post about cherry-picking

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

gulftobay
Mesotopia
#691 - 2012-06-22 03:24:05 UTC
Nikodiemus wrote:
Your wall of text is a bust. Pretty numbers and spaces may seem informative and logical to the masses but their facts don't hold water. Nice try though.


Umm yeah, first complain not enough references, and then complain when offered?
Hrothgar Nilsson
#692 - 2012-06-22 03:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Well, apparently this thread has gone on for 35 pages and no action was taken.

It must not be against the rules to engage in Jew-bashing on the EVE forums.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#693 - 2012-06-22 03:26:31 UTC
Aryth wrote:
If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down.

**scratches head**
Hrothgar Nilsson
#694 - 2012-06-22 03:27:21 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
This isn't the worst thing ever to occur in EVE by a longshot so no as much as I and the Jewbal deride CCP this is nothing anyone should get fired over.

**scratches head again**
Hrothgar Nilsson
#695 - 2012-06-22 03:28:27 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
We spent ISK to make LP and while we(the Jewbal) will net out way ahead this was actually a huge ISK sink for EVE due to LP store costs and transaction fees.

??
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#696 - 2012-06-22 03:28:32 UTC
using the word "Jew" is jew bashing

good to know

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Triumvirate.
#697 - 2012-06-22 03:29:15 UTC
McOboe wrote:
Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt.


Once this exploit has been highlighted, what then is your aftergame? The damage has been done and it has the potential for serious economic damage.

The problem isn't that some goonies made money manipulating the mechanics CCP created; the problem is that the player base does not know what the economy will be like in EVE for future expansions. The worst thing will be players freezing their activity and trusting no one or no thing every time an expansion is announced.

Along with the market manipulation that will occur every time, CCP needs to change their mindset about the 'sandbox', from anarchist to responsible stakeholder. The NPC and CCP need to take the initiative of a real and responsible government and provide the 'Sandbox' with simple regulations and accountable regulators.

The sandbox fails when there is not a parent or lifesaver telling us we are drowning our children/players.
Cordially Yours
Doomheim
#698 - 2012-06-22 03:29:18 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
using the word "Jew" is jew bashing

good to know

don't play stupid. referencing the protocols of the elders of zion is anti semitism of the worst sort.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#699 - 2012-06-22 03:29:35 UTC
Courthouse wrote:
Posting in a thread where Jade's so dumb he literally made 1/100 of what the jewbal made based solely on his huge effort eve online gaming rewards and not intelligent use of game mechanics.

**scratches head yet again**
Hrothgar Nilsson
#700 - 2012-06-22 03:30:42 UTC
Maggie Maggie wrote:
No no, you keep doing your job. You're quite good at it. On the whole, you probably generate just as many tears as the jewbal, they're just more spread out.

**??**