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Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too high?
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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2012-06-11 23:58:42 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Gankers are supposedly the toughest, meanest, most vile members of the Eve Universe, correct? So the punishment should fit. Strip them to -10 secy, banish immediately to a random null sector, unable to entire Empire ever again. Ganked toon gets possession of all goodies on each toon in that account.

They're real bad-arses, yeah? So, let them prove it.


forum alts say the darndest things

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-06-12 01:03:41 UTC
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible



It would be if the carebears actually fitted and flew their ships correctly.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-06-12 01:12:59 UTC
MasterEnt wrote:
I find it HILARIOUS that we have suicide gankers saying they are doing it because they want hisec miners to experience risk, and then want penalties for pirating in hisec to include less risk.

Just silly.


I find it hilarious that despite something being nerfed over & over, people in highsec want it nerfed more just so they don't have to take precautionary measures.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2012-06-12 12:24:30 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Are you trying to tell me that if I fly into VFK I'll have trouble finding PvP? Lol


Are you seriously asking a guy in Sniggwaffe about the state of Goonspace?
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2012-06-12 12:33:54 UTC
Thought I'd help you guys out here since you seem to be latched onto something that doesn't matter. I keep seeing posters go on and on about the price difference in ships between the ganker and the gankee. This should literally only matter if you really think that one price bracket of ships should be safe from another price bracket of ships. Did you all buy pre-skilled accounts or something? The fact that my interceptor or some newbee in a rifter can tackle your 3b isk Tengu and ruin their day is one of the lasting appeals of EVE. There is no such "leveling" curve and God forbid there ever appears one. I certainly would never approve of one based on market values of ships and mods. That's beyond silly.
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#206 - 2012-06-12 12:45:05 UTC
A better question is, Is it too easy to make throw away alts. I mean if someone is willing to **** away the sec status of their main and then work it back up and go back to ganking, there is no issue there because they are accepting the penalty..

If people are making throw away destroyer alts to gank miners and then delete the character when they cant go above .4 space any longer that is in a way skirting the system.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#207 - 2012-06-12 14:16:54 UTC
David Cedarbridge wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Are you trying to tell me that if I fly into VFK I'll have trouble finding PvP? Lol


Are you seriously asking a guy in Sniggwaffe about the state of Goonspace?


Didn't you get the Memo? Anone based in any sec space below .5 is automatically a member of the CFC. I got my decoder ring in the post just yesterday.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#208 - 2012-06-12 14:18:52 UTC
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:
A better question is, Is it too easy to make throw away alts. I mean if someone is willing to **** away the sec status of their main and then work it back up and go back to ganking, there is no issue there because they are accepting the penalty..

If people are making throw away destroyer alts to gank miners and then delete the character when they cant go above .4 space any longer that is in a way skirting the system.


Deleting Negative Sec Characters will get your account banned. It's so much easier to just get an Orca.

Gankers use alts because travel is annoying when you don't want to use a jump clone slot (or wait the timer). Sec status won't be relevant until miners start shooting at flashies that land in belts.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#209 - 2012-06-12 20:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Suicide ganking penalties are far too low, A thrasher fit to take down a hulk can be bought for pennies compared to what the gankee loses. it should really cost you to do unlawful things in lawful space. Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible

A. the cost of the ganking ship is irrelevant. However, I will indulge you just this once...

How much (in dollars or pounds or Euros) would it take to render a super-tanker "sunk"? 1/20? 1/50? 1/100? 1/1000th the price of the super tanker? I may not be the greatest mind in the inner sphere, but I do know explosives and ships/boats.

From Bloomberg Costs for *used* supertankers -
Quote:
A five-year-old supertanker was worth $79.94 million, according to the Baltic Exchange. That’s 4.6 percent down this year, and 51 percent lower than the peak of $162.04 million on July 28, 2008, data show.


Army Develops Stable Substitute for TNT From this article, the quote
Quote:
The new explosive is produced at the Holston Army Ammunition Plant in Tennessee and costs $8 per pound. While TNT is $2 less per pound, it is manufactured outside of the United States.
.

So - TNT costs about $6.00 / pound
(For Reference - C4 costs about 11-22 / pound 2nd paragraph has the citation.


From the Wikipedia article on the USS Cole bombing, approximately 400 to 700 pounds of explosive were used in the attack against a military ship - I'm going to go all out and go 20X as much for a tanker and use the high end estimate, 700 pounds.

So lets go all out and get 14.000 pound of either C4 or TNT (C4 would be better for our purposes as it's stronger, more stable and more easily molded).

14.000 x 6.00 = $84,000 for TNT or
14.000 x 22.00 = $308,000 for C4.

(I hope you will agree that 14K pound of C4 or TNT, used appropriately, would destroy a tanker [i.e. - make it useless] just as few cheap-fit dessies can destroy [or make useless] a hulk)

80.000.000 / 308.000 =259.740 (repeating, of course). So for 1/260 the price of a super tanker, you can render it unusable or sink it out right. TNT would be even worse... If we go with a hulk price of 300.000.000, than the equivalent price of "explosive" used to sink it (using the worst case comparison from above) would be 1,158,301 isk... The sell price of a Catalyst in Jita right now is 1.842.900...

So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...

Edit to add: I'm very hungover right now, so any mistakes in *maths* are entirely my own...Oops

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#210 - 2012-06-12 20:51:47 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Suicide ganking penalties are far too low, A thrasher fit to take down a hulk can be bought for pennies compared to what the gankee loses. it should really cost you to do unlawful things in lawful space. Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible

A. the cost of the ganking ship is irrelevant. However, I will indulge you just this once...

How much (in dollars or pounds or Euros) would it take to render a super-tanker "sunk"? 1/20? 1/50? 1/100? 1/1000th the price of the super tanker? I may not be the greatest mind in the inner sphere, but I do know explosives and ships/boats.

From Bloomberg Costs for *used* supertankers -
Quote:
A five-year-old supertanker was worth $79.94 million, according to the Baltic Exchange. That’s 4.6 percent down this year, and 51 percent lower than the peak of $162.04 million on July 28, 2008, data show.


Army Develops Stable Substitute for TNT From this article, the quote
Quote:
The new explosive is produced at the Holston Army Ammunition Plant in Tennessee and costs $8 per pound. While TNT is $2 less per pound, it is manufactured outside of the United States.
.

So - TNT costs about $6.00 / pound
(For Reference - C4 costs about 11-22 / pound 2nd paragraph has the citation.


From the Wikipedia article on the USS Cole bombing, approximately 400 to 700 pounds of explosive were used in the attack against a military ship - I'm going to go all out and go 20X as much for a tanker and use the high end estimate, 700 pounds.

So lets go all out and get 14.000 pound of either C4 or TNT (C4 would be better for our purposes as it's stronger, more stable and more easily molded).

14.000 x 6.00 = $84,000 for TNT or
14.000 x 22.00 = $308,000 for C4.

(I hope you will agree that 14K pound of C4 or TNT, used appropriately, would destroy a tanker [i.e. - make it useless] just as few cheap-fit dessies can destroy [or make useless] a hulk)

80.000.000 / 308.000 =259.740 (repeating, of course). So for 1/260 the price of a super tanker, you can render it unusable or sink it out right. TNT would be even worse... If we go with a hulk price of 300.000.000, than the equivalent price of "explosive" used to sink it (using the worst case comparison from above) would be 1,158,301 isk... The sell price of a Catalyst in Jita right now is 1.842.900...

So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...

Edit to add: I'm very hungover right now, so any mistakes in *maths* are entirely my own...Oops

Would you mind running the numbers for some home-made thermite? It isn't that expensive, as I understand it.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#211 - 2012-06-12 21:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Darth Gustav wrote:
Would you mind running the numbers for some home-made thermite? It isn't that expensive, as I understand it.

Home made Thermite

Iron Oxide - by the pound
Aluminum Powder
Magnesium Ribbon

Understand Thermite is legal to own in the US - your jurisdiction may have other rules!

Enjoy...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#212 - 2012-06-12 21:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Thanks for the quick analysis. I totally see why miners complain about their high-value specialized equipment being susceptible basically to ships that amount to thermite on a frame with a prop mod and a warp drive.

This is truly enlightening!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2012-06-12 21:32:34 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...



The argument fails in terms of "do serious damage to" or "cripple", but it doesn't necessarily fail in terms of "blowing the whole thing to smithereens". Ships in EVE are blown to smithereens, there's no such thing as "blow a hole in the side of" or "cripple".

How much TNT would it take to actually totally blow up an entire oil tanker so that all that's left is a few bits of scrap metal?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#214 - 2012-06-12 21:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...



The argument fails in terms of "do serious damage to" or "cripple", but it doesn't necessarily fail in terms of "blowing the whole thing to smithereens". Ships in EVE are blown to smithereens, there's no such thing as "blow a hole in the side of" or "cripple".

How much TNT would it take to actually totally blow up an entire oil tanker so that all that's left is a few bits of scrap metal?



In Eve Online we have wrecks. They are remnants of destroyed hulls which are not smithereens, but in fact are containers.

Within these wrecks one frequently finds goodies such as drops.

In an oil tanker this could presumably include a wrecked tanker, frightened passengers, and some remnant of the oil cargo. Not to mention the highly-sought-after metal scraps. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-06-12 22:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...



The argument fails in terms of "do serious damage to" or "cripple", but it doesn't necessarily fail in terms of "blowing the whole thing to smithereens". Ships in EVE are blown to smithereens, there's no such thing as "blow a hole in the side of" or "cripple".

How much TNT would it take to actually totally blow up an entire oil tanker so that all that's left is a few bits of scrap metal?

Asuri Kinnes wrote:
(I hope you will agree that 14K pound of C4 or TNT, used appropriately, would destroy a tanker [i.e. - make it useless] just as few cheap-fit dessies can destroy [or make useless] a hulk)


TBQH - From my time in the Navy, I could probably sink a tanker with much less than 14K pounds of C4.... Using shaped charges I could probably get by with 500 to 750 pounds alone... The thing is "appropriately applied". The *point* being that the proper application of small forces yield HUGE results (i.e. Dessie vrs Hulk).

You *are* welcome.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#216 - 2012-06-12 22:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...



The argument fails in terms of "do serious damage to" or "cripple", but it doesn't necessarily fail in terms of "blowing the whole thing to smithereens". Ships in EVE are blown to smithereens, there's no such thing as "blow a hole in the side of" or "cripple".

How much TNT would it take to actually totally blow up an entire oil tanker so that all that's left is a few bits of scrap metal?

Asuri Kinnes wrote:
(I hope you will agree that 14K pound of C4 or TNT, used appropriately, would destroy a tanker [i.e. - make it useless] just as few cheap-fit dessies can destroy [or make useless] a hulk)


TBQH - From my time in the Navy, I could probably sink a tanker with much less than 14K pounds of C4.... Using shaped charges I could probably get by with 500 to 750 pounds alone... The thing is "appropriately applied". The *point* being that the proper application of small forces yield HUGE results (i.e. Dessie vrs Hulk).

You *are* welcome.

Properly placed thermite accomplishes the same feat with only 200-300 pounds.

It literally burns in water because it is self-oxidizing. It also literally burns through metal and just about everything else.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2012-06-12 22:26:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


The penalty for suicide ganking is just fine where its at there, ghostrider. No, there's noo need to change.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-06-13 00:20:16 UTC
Conrad Makbure wrote:
The penalty for suicide ganking is just fine where its at there, ghostrider. No, there's noo need to change.

Does that mean Ghostrider Awoxer'd Goose?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-06-13 00:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian
Darth Gustav wrote:
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:


So your argument that something cheaper shouldn't be able to do so much damage to something so much more expensive is actually very, very much wrong...



The argument fails in terms of "do serious damage to" or "cripple", but it doesn't necessarily fail in terms of "blowing the whole thing to smithereens". Ships in EVE are blown to smithereens, there's no such thing as "blow a hole in the side of" or "cripple".

How much TNT would it take to actually totally blow up an entire oil tanker so that all that's left is a few bits of scrap metal?



In Eve Online we have wrecks.


Yeah, have you looked at a wreck recently? They're just some hunks of scrap metal, in no way resembling either the shape or even size of the original craft.

So my question to the knowledgeable person was, what would it take not just to sink a tanker or put it out of commission, but to actually blow the whole thing up to the analogue of a "wreck" in EVE - you know, what you have after you get the big 'splosion, the one with smithereens flying everywhere? Lol
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#220 - 2012-06-13 00:33:56 UTC
Excuse me.

Is this the thread for risk averse, combat frightened morons to cry about a mechanic that they are in no way required to participate in?

Let me just say this:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Mr Epeen Cool