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Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too high?

Author
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#161 - 2012-06-01 16:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
RubyPorto wrote:
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
The fact that suic ganking is so prevalent suggests that the penalty is too low. Continue to fix the loopholes and increase the penalty. At present, committing a space "felony" in hisec is equivalent to getting a parking ticket and ignoring it.


Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.


Well actually your example is rather like if concord shoots someone because he left cans behind them, it's absolutely nnot the same thing.
Your perfect example would be "Does your gar get blown up by the police if you start killing defenceless citizens with your car just because you can"

Bring irl to Eve is a very bad example, irl is already not an example of justice and Eve is just the opposite, reward criminals.

Once again, you want no consequences or little because you want to shoot stuff? -go to low or null where risk vs reward means something, high sec is far too safe for Eve bullies/criminals.
Now you can turn this thing as much as you want and compare with RL, wish you good luck.

brb

Par'Gellen
#162 - 2012-06-01 16:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
RubyPorto wrote:
You can have fun however you prefer. If station games are fun for you, by all means play them and enjoy them.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#163 - 2012-06-01 17:03:22 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You can have fun however you prefer. If station games are fun for you, by all means play them and enjoy them.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...



Well first of all we should admit ganking is like sexual pervs, if they keep doing it and making profits/have fun it's because someone somewhere encourages this behaviour.

This being said, bring some moral in to an nerds internet space ship game is a very bad thing, unless is stream live and you have a few drinks already.

brb

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-06-01 17:16:27 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You can have fun however you prefer. If station games are fun for you, by all means play them and enjoy them.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...


Just don't try to have fun by ganking. The miners tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will complain when anyone else tries to do the same thing. Baffling...

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Par'Gellen
#165 - 2012-06-01 17:34:39 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just don't try to have fun by ganking. The miners tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will complain when anyone else tries to do the same thing. Baffling...

Hehe! Not even close. Miner playstyles do not prevent gankers from doing what they like. The reverse cannot be said.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Maledictum Aideron
In Praise of Bacchus
#166 - 2012-06-01 17:36:59 UTC
No but apparently the penalties for flying stupid are. Lol
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#167 - 2012-06-01 17:38:30 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just don't try to have fun by ganking. The miners tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will complain when anyone else tries to do the same thing. Baffling...

Hehe! Not even close. Miner playstyles do not prevent gankers from doing what they like. The reverse cannot be said.


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-06-01 17:41:52 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.


So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#169 - 2012-06-01 17:44:08 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.


So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.


You rarely ever see anything other than Catalysts & Thrashers used in ganks. If you do, it's a Talos or Tornado. Is 4 ships really too much for you?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Par'Gellen
#170 - 2012-06-01 17:49:13 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.


So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.


You rarely ever see anything other than Catalysts & Thrashers used in ganks. If you do, it's a Talos or Tornado. Is 4 ships really too much for you?

Now that is some good information. Oracles too.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Maledictum Aideron
In Praise of Bacchus
#171 - 2012-06-01 17:53:34 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.


So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.


You rarely ever see anything other than Catalysts & Thrashers used in ganks. If you do, it's a Talos or Tornado. Is 4 ships really too much for you?

Now that is some good information. Oracles too.


Local is a helluva tool.
Par'Gellen
#172 - 2012-06-01 17:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Maledictum Aideron wrote:

Local is a helluva tool.

Local means jack in high sec. Too much traffic. It has its moments though.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Maledictum Aideron
In Praise of Bacchus
#173 - 2012-06-01 18:28:39 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Maledictum Aideron wrote:

Local is a helluva tool.

Local means jack in high sec. Too much traffic.


You know, I typed out a step by step method for utilising these powerful tools, d-scan and local, that would save you a fortune. Then I thought, why bother? So I deleted it and have thus decided not to share this information with you. By all means, carry on with your woe is me crusade and I'll continue to rake in the profits. Seems fair.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-06-01 19:20:56 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.


So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.


You rarely ever see anything other than Catalysts & Thrashers used in ganks. If you do, it's a Talos or Tornado. Is 4 ships really too much for you?

Now that is some good information. Oracles too.


I forgot about the Oracle. I shouldn't have, because I used one for a gank & lost 400 points when the Mack pilot fought back. At least I can say I killed her :)

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Twulf
Order of the Eagles
#175 - 2012-06-01 19:25:21 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
Loss of the gankers ship is no loss. They know its going to be lost, and its going to profit them even if its not a monetary profit.


i know that you can only look at a spreadsheet and say "hmm yes the penalties are too low" but the fact that you have to operate very differently when you're -5 or lower is quite a substantial penalty



Yes because Security Status is so hard to get back, lets be honest here, the only reason people have low Security status is because they CHOOSE too.

You could fix your Security status in a few hours.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#176 - 2012-06-01 20:11:13 UTC
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
The fact that suic ganking is so prevalent suggests that the penalty is too low. Continue to fix the loopholes and increase the penalty. At present, committing a space "felony" in hisec is equivalent to getting a parking ticket and ignoring it.


Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.



Not only does my car not get blown up when I ignore a parking ticket, I also dont get paid a higher amount than my car was worth after the fact.


Welcome to 6 months ago. Insurance doesn't pay out if you get killed by CONCORD.


I wasnt talking about concord.


If someone wants to pay bounties on the cars we blow up (to further the analogy), that is entirely their business.

If you fit your Hulk in a way that leaves it economical to gank, that is your choice. Fit a Tank to your Hulk and keep an RR battleship sitting by your mining fleet and you force gankers to use 6 Tornados to gank your Hulk at a cost of ~380m ISK at the cheapest.
But then, that takes effort, so I'm sure you're going to yell at me for being so bold as to suggest you adapt.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#177 - 2012-06-01 20:12:44 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?
Which can be replaced in minutes. Now, if it took nothing less than a 100+ mil isk battleship to gank a barge then yeah your argument would hold water. Gank dessies don't count as a real loss. Hell neither do gank battlecruisers to anyone with a mission alt. Sec status is so easy to get back up it's not even a real consideration. GCC just means some sitting in a safespot or warping around for 15 minutes while watching TV.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
In the case of an exhumer you are talking about a lot of isk that insurance doesn't cover properly anyway. Platinum insurance payout on a Hulk is just under 60 mil. They sell for 250+ mil.

So. Lets to the math.
A relatively new player gankee loses weeks of time (ore doesn't magically appear in your station hangar) and millions of isk even after insurance (calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories if you need it).

A smart ganker loses a few mil and has to do a few minutes of warping to shed his GCC and at most a couple of hours or so of grinding to shed his sec hit.

Again that calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories. Give it a look.


If the victim of a gank chose to undock in a ship that they were unwilling to part with, that is their fault. Rule number 1 in EvE is don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#178 - 2012-06-01 20:19:46 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Keia Nomesteturj wrote:
The fact that suic ganking is so prevalent suggests that the penalty is too low. Continue to fix the loopholes and increase the penalty. At present, committing a space "felony" in hisec is equivalent to getting a parking ticket and ignoring it.


Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.


Well actually your example is rather like if concord shoots someone because he left cans behind them, it's absolutely nnot the same thing.
Your perfect example would be "Does your gar get blown up by the police if you start killing defenceless citizens with your car just because you can"

Bring irl to Eve is a very bad example, irl is already not an example of justice and Eve is just the opposite, reward criminals.

Once again, you want no consequences or little because you want to shoot stuff? -go to low or null where risk vs reward means something, high sec is far too safe for Eve bullies/criminals.
Now you can turn this thing as much as you want and compare with RL, wish you good luck.


I didn't bring up an IRL analogy, I just responded to Keia's IRL analogy to fix it.

So, a Hulk is a person, but a ganker's ship is a Car? If you want to say that blowing up spaceships is murder than the analogy would be:

"Do the police shoot you to death automatically and immediately if you kill one person unprovoked?" Judging from the number of murderers in Prison, I'd say no.

But to fix my analogy, I suppose it would be:
"Do the Police blow up your car if you destroy someone else's car?"

In Hisec, illegal agression comes with a guarantee of losing your ship. How is that safe for criminals?
If you're going to say "because they've adapted to that consequence" then why shouldn't miners adapt to the new risk levels that come with mining in a Hulk?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#179 - 2012-06-01 20:26:46 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You can have fun however you prefer. If station games are fun for you, by all means play them and enjoy them.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...


You can have fun mining in HS. You can do it safely. You can do it in a Hulk.
Pick the first two, mine in a Rokh and you won't get ganked at all.
Pick the first one, mine in a Covetor and odds are you'll recoup your cost well before you get ganked.
Pick all three, and you just need to put a little effort into survival, so it's a little bit riskier.
All you have to do is spend a teeny-tiny bit of effort.

I have seen no serious argument from gankers saying that mining should be banned. I've seen just about every thread include a call for ganking to be banned. Which camp wants to limit options now?
You're in a game that encourages player vs player interaction in all forms (from the market to shooting spaceships), where CCP has very clearly said that HiSec is not "Safe" and is not intended to be "Safe." Having people try to blow up your ship (you're immortal, you can't be killed; watch the intro movie again) is a natural part of the game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#180 - 2012-06-01 20:29:41 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just don't try to have fun by ganking. The miners tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will complain when anyone else tries to do the same thing. Baffling...

Hehe! Not even close. Miner playstyles do not prevent gankers from doing what they like. The reverse cannot be said.


Yes it can.

Ganking does not prevent Miners from doing what they like. AFAIK, your mining lasers still work even under the pants-wetting terror of an incoming gank.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon