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Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too high?
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#181 - 2012-06-01 20:30:46 UTC
Twulf wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
Loss of the gankers ship is no loss. They know its going to be lost, and its going to profit them even if its not a monetary profit.


i know that you can only look at a spreadsheet and say "hmm yes the penalties are too low" but the fact that you have to operate very differently when you're -5 or lower is quite a substantial penalty



Yes because Security Status is so hard to get back, lets be honest here, the only reason people have low Security status is because they CHOOSE too.

You could fix your Security status in a few hours.


Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-06-02 10:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
RubyPorto wrote:
Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.


If they didn't mine in highsec. You will never convince them though, because most of them are devout believers that they are the primary supply of minerals on the market. How else would you build your supers, right?... Even though any 0.0 Alliance with Sov gets vast ammounts of every mineral available for the price of 3 Hulks.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#183 - 2012-06-02 11:40:25 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.


If they didn't mine in highsec. You will never convince them though, because most of them are devout believers that they are the primary supply of minerals on the market. How else would you build your supers, right?... Even though any 0.0 Alliance with Sov gets vast ammounts of every mineral available for the price of 3 Hulks.


At 30 Million Isk Per Hour mining Omber a Hulk takes just 8h20m to pay off. Compared to most nice ratting ships, that's nothing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#184 - 2012-06-02 11:44:18 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.


If they didn't mine in highsec. You will never convince them though, because most of them are devout believers that they are the primary supply of minerals on the market. How else would you build your supers, right?... Even though any 0.0 Alliance with Sov gets vast ammounts of every mineral available for the price of 3 Hulks.


At 30 Million Isk Per Hour mining Omber a Hulk takes just 8h20m to pay off. Compared to most nice ratting ships, that's nothing.


Agreed. It's still ****** isk compared to mining elsewhere though.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#185 - 2012-06-02 11:55:19 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.


If they didn't mine in highsec. You will never convince them though, because most of them are devout believers that they are the primary supply of minerals on the market. How else would you build your supers, right?... Even though any 0.0 Alliance with Sov gets vast ammounts of every mineral available for the price of 3 Hulks.


At 30 Million Isk Per Hour mining Omber a Hulk takes just 8h20m to pay off. Compared to most nice ratting ships, that's nothing.


Agreed. It's still ****** isk compared to mining elsewhere though.


ABC would get you ~70m atm, and Stripping Hidden Belts like ~63m per Bloodtear, I think.

Wasn't long ago that ABC got you 50m.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-06-02 12:18:40 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
ABC would get you ~70m atm, and Stripping Hidden Belts like ~63m per Bloodtear, I think.

Wasn't long ago that ABC got you 50m.


Then there's harvesting space farts, although I'm not sure on the rate for that.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#187 - 2012-06-02 12:19:54 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
ABC would get you ~70m atm, and Stripping Hidden Belts like ~63m per Bloodtear, I think.

Wasn't long ago that ABC got you 50m.


Then there's harvesting space farts, although I'm not sure on the rate for that.


Probably better than harvesting space tears. You can turn farts into energy to sell to your power company.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-06-02 12:24:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
ABC would get you ~70m atm, and Stripping Hidden Belts like ~63m per Bloodtear, I think.

Wasn't long ago that ABC got you 50m.


Then there's harvesting space farts, although I'm not sure on the rate for that.


Probably better than harvesting space tears. You can turn farts into energy to sell to your power company.


Not exactly what I was referring too, but I laughed.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Arcturis Achasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2012-06-11 19:41:01 UTC
Suicide ganking penalties are far too low, A thrasher fit to take down a hulk can be bought for pennies compared to what the gankee loses. it should really cost you to do unlawful things in lawful space. Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#190 - 2012-06-11 19:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Ashina Sito wrote:
Being "bad" in game should not be an easy road. It should mean something.


Being "good" in game shouldn't be an easy road either. It should mean something.

Do you think being good in EVE is easy?

Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible

I tend to disagree.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Josef Djugashvilis
#191 - 2012-06-11 19:47:15 UTC
If the penalty for ganking was too high, folk would not gank.

This is not a signature.
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-06-11 19:48:18 UTC
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible


Straight from the horse's mouth.
Josef Djugashvilis
#193 - 2012-06-11 22:36:29 UTC
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible


Why?

This is not a signature.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#194 - 2012-06-11 22:40:06 UTC
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible
No. Why should it?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#195 - 2012-06-11 22:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Arcturis Achasse wrote:
Suicide ganking penalties are far too low, A thrasher fit to take down a hulk can be bought for pennies compared to what the gankee loses. it should really cost you to do unlawful things in lawful space. Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible


Only if the Hulk doesn't bother to tank it.

A weapon to destroy a car can be bought for pennies.

A weapon to destroy an armored car is more expensive.

An armored car performs less well than it's unarmored version, but if you know people are out to get you, isn't it a good tradeoff?



As for the idea that something can take down something orders of magnitude more expensive than it, ever compare the cost of a Dictor or HiC to the Super or Titan it can catch and kill?



Also, Thrashers for Hulk ganks Roll

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#196 - 2012-06-11 22:56:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


I support suicide ganking, but I also support the "Eve has Consequences" mindset. Honestly, it's relatively painless to setup a gank and execute it. But for the sake of argument...

A bank robber knows the risks before he goes into the bank to rob it. There's loss of life, injury, loss of freedom. You have to obtain a weapon or maybe even an explosive device, which could tip off authorities, and if you want it on the down low, you have to put yourself in the path of some unsavory characters. Then there are the risks of prison itself. If he is doing it as part of a group, then there are further risks. Even if he does manage to make it out of the bank, there is a psychological risk as well. Will he be snitched on? Will he be caught and tempted to snitch with the promise of a lighter sentence? Will he be cut out, or even worse, betrayed and possibly killed to keep him silent? Each one fo these things are a risk that must be weighed and accepted.

Now, once these risks have been accepted, are they still risks? One could argue then that the perpetrator has nothing to lose if he holds no value to the things that he will potentially lose within the commision of the crime, especially if its the only way to facilitate the crime. If someone is willing to sacrifice a person or object in order to get what they want, they then become assets, a means to an end, and without the sacrifice, the ends could not be achieved. Thus, it is not a risk at best, and it's gamble at worse. In either case though, the consequences are rather...soft compared to the person who is performing a low risk activity and loses their assets. In some cases, it might even be enough to drive the victim into insolvency if they are not part of a greater group.

John Hancock
MasterEnt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-06-11 23:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: MasterEnt
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
Loss of the gankers ship is no loss.


If it's not a loss, why do they lose it?


Its a write off, not a loss. Big difference. You cannot loose something you are throwing away.
Go to school... then come back and you can participate in your own thread.

I find it HILARIOUS that we have suicide gankers saying they are doing it because they want hisec miners to experience risk, and then want penalties for pirating in hisec to include less risk.

Just silly.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-06-11 23:37:39 UTC
Gankers are supposedly the toughest, meanest, most vile members of the Eve Universe, correct? So the punishment should fit. Strip them to -10 secy, banish immediately to a random null sector, unable to entire Empire ever again. Ganked toon gets possession of all goodies on each toon in that account.

They're real bad-arses, yeah? So, let them prove it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#199 - 2012-06-11 23:44:04 UTC
MasterEnt wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
Loss of the gankers ship is no loss.


If it's not a loss, why do they lose it?


Its a write off, not a loss. Big difference. You cannot loose something you are throwing away.
Go to school... then come back and you can participate in your own thread.


By the same logic, the %chance of a Hulk loss times the value of the Hulk is the cost you pay to mine in a Hulk.

Business expensing has ways to value random risk of lost equipment.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#200 - 2012-06-11 23:45:11 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Gankers are supposedly the toughest, meanest, most vile members of the Eve Universe, correct? So the punishment should fit. Strip them to -10 secy, banish immediately to a random null sector, unable to entire Empire ever again. Ganked toon gets possession of all goodies on each toon in that account.

They're real bad-arses, yeah? So, let them prove it.


The only people who're saying that gankers are any of those things are the Miners. Straw man arguments are fun though, huh-uh?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon