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New dev blog: This Week In The Unified Inventory

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MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2012-05-28 09:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Callidus Dux wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:

.....
I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming.


Again: Read the forum. It Sucks AND AND AND:


Restore the old UI as it was before 22.05.2012!
Nothing more. Restore the UI. No Chortcuts; no lag; Icons in my NeoCom, double clicks at the icons in my assets and hundreds of independent, adjustable in size and positition, windows. NOTHING MORE!
We want to be able to have an EXACT copy of the former UI. Are you willed to change it so that we can have it?

Can someone form CCP respond to this demand? I am feeling ignored from CCP. Evil

maybe because you just ignored them?

the part you left out of what you quoted literately replies to your demand.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#242 - 2012-05-28 09:09:04 UTC
CCP, Thanks for the effort you are putting into the new UI. I don't like it, yet, but I can see the potential and look forward to seeing it realised.

I have a few issues to bring to your attention:

1) I really like to see my assets in plain view when I dock up. This wish of mine, and many other players' requests for multiple windows, remembering window positions, etc., could be achieved by fixing the the pin/unpin mechanic. It does not work with inventory windows. Here is my use case:

I am docked at station X. I create an arbitrary number of inventory windows (by shift-clicking). I move, shape, sort and filter the windows to suit my purposes. I pin the ones that I wish to persist. I undock and re-dock at station X. My pinned inventory windows display in the same positions, with the same filters, sort orders, columns displayed.

2) When I drag items from one container to another, using a single window, I quite often manage to hover over the destination a fraction of a second too long. The destination container then opens up, destroying my view of the source container. I realise that there are situations where the 'open on hover' or 'open on drag' mechanic is valuable, but clearly there are some instances where it is not. Please look into this. I have read suggestions on these forums for a button that appears when hovering, or increasing the delay before opening the targer container. Either would suit me.

3) The 'stack all' function seems a bit buggy. Sometimes it stacks, sometimes it doesnt. I recently had a situation where I was moving minerals from one station to another. In the source container (IIRC a station hangar), I could not get the minerals to stack no matter what I did. I dragged them all to the cargohold of my hauler and stacked them there, no problem.

4) The Assets window is not integrated with the new UI. Are there any plans for this?


- Ponder
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2012-05-28 09:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Quote:
Making it optional is also not optional (confusingly enough) as it would require us to maintain two systems side by side which would cause an exponential increase in code and interface complexity if we were to make a habit of it


but that is just NOT TRUE. Come on guys, I support the tree view. but if you don't think you can code it to be optinal, you're kidding your self.

set default to buttons in the game and neocom open in a new window.

make it so you have to click the >> button to open the tree UI. Only clicking in the tree UI open that in the same window.

make sure the tree UI remember if it was left open or closed per window.

DONE, IT IS NOW OPTIONAL.

Note I fully support the new UI. However, can you please please tell me what is holding you back from doing something like what I posted above? Is there something in the code I'm not understanding? you would obviously have it on by default, but the second a player closes it with the << button, they would never see it again.

also instead of shift click*which should only be in the tree UI* make it click and drag, and right click to pen as a new window. Add back and forward buttons to the tree pop out UI.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#244 - 2012-05-28 09:26:11 UTC
Bah, reading the posts here gets me al rilled up again.

Mar Drakar wrote:
now that this is moving filehandling-style way, one thing that's missing is back and forward buttons.



Yep that times 1000. If we are stuck with this inventory of horror we need to be able to move back & forth.

How many times I had a folder open the past days and if I double clicked on another folder... You know what it did?
It gobsmackingly! replaced the folder I had already open. And you know what I did then? I hit that small << button, which collapsed the tree instead of going back to the folder I wanted to be open.

It's so counter intuitive and just pure bad design.

Check your working computer. Open up a folder and then another. You have now 2 folders open. And open a new one and...
If Wrangler where still here he'd say it's stupid. Because it doesn't work. You have to fight the interface.
And yes, slim it down. Its takes way too much screen space as well.


CCP dudes, in stations people can hear you scream.




Oh, ps, stop reinventing the wheel. Evil
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2012-05-28 09:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Archibald Frederick III wrote:
Cloned S0ul wrote:
Hi Devs.
[...]

My question to you CCP, why you change best working mechanism in game ?

Ps.While we old players can deal with your new full of wired mechanic inventory im 100% sure newbis need spent more time to discovery how it works... Why you bring chaos to game ?


Since I've been playing for less than a month, perhaps I'm less invested in some of the more complex game systems or haven't been exposed to some of the use cases that people feel have been messed up. Maybe. However, I can say with assurance that the new system is MUCH easier for 'newbis' such as myself to get our heads around. It would take some mighty rose-tinted goggles to say that the inventory was 'the best working mechanism in the game,' and while the new system has plenty of room for improvement, this is a good and necessary thing that you are doing. I feel like not enough people are saying that. Fix the bugs, restore the lost functionality, but never believe that the playerbase is unanimous in wanting a return to the good old days.


psft I'm still fighting to get back per-trinity graphics. They looks SOOOO much better back then. /sarcasm

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Logicycle
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#246 - 2012-05-28 09:29:31 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:


I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible).



lies.
Liranan
H A V O C Industrial
Fraternity.
#247 - 2012-05-28 09:32:37 UTC
Dear CCP,

Thanks for the unified cargo and items hangar. It's a fantastic feature and I sincerely love it. What I like the most is that the window resizes itself on undock and sometimes closes simply because it feels like it. As always great features, don't ever stop.

A tragically loyal customer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zeitgeistmovie?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/23/Lio3n66bwOo This shit's got to go - Jacque Fresco
disasteur
disasterous industries
#248 - 2012-05-28 09:41:46 UTC
Logicycle wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:


I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible).



lies.


its not an option because you dont want it to be an option? (my guess is that the code is to deep integraded in the entire system?)
technically impossible? not true a complete roleback has done before (how many days that took for you to consider?) would be strange if in case of an emergency you couldnt restore it, but ok what ever you say
is a roleback desireable? guess not cus then the other half will start to complain.....


how about this, in station the new look and feel, with the suggested modifications, in space more like the old look and feel?
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#249 - 2012-05-28 09:59:15 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:


I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible).



That sounds familiar......

"Sorry, it is technically impossible to revert to the old hanger system . CQ is here to stay."


After the Jita riots and lots of unsubbed accounts, it miraculously became technically possible..........
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#250 - 2012-05-28 10:00:01 UTC
An answer to two SIMPLE questions, please.....

Why not revert to the old system ?
Why did you not listen to all the issues pointed out for a couple of weeks while this system was on SISI ?

Giving an honest response to these questions is the least you can do after all this crap.
Teyyla
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#251 - 2012-05-28 10:04:51 UTC
A lot of the issues over the new inventory system are really quite simple to fix. You just need to get your heads out of your ass and LISTEN.

1. Bring back the clickable buttons that just open a single hanger (Ships, Items, Corp Hanger). Make these windows remember size and position, and reinstate the tabs on the Corp hanger. Make the tree view hidden by default.

2. Reinstate the important right-click shortcuts.... Open fuel bay, drone bay, ships hanger, ore hold, ship maintenance bay, Corp hanger. Again, make these windows remember size and position, and reinstate the tabs on the Corp hanger. It REALLY REALLY is not a bad thing to have important stuff in the right-click menu when it improves functionality. Like others have said, remove some of the redundant ones instead, like undock etc.

3. Double clicking in your main hanger should open your cargo ONLY. Not the whole inventory, that’s what the button on the Neocom is for. Make this window remember size and position and make the tree view hidden by default. Same applies when clicking the cargo icon while in space.

4. Open a wreck in a new window. Make this window remember size and position. Keep the loot all button.

5. Give an option to hide the ISK value from the inventory windows, it is not something that we would use all the time, it just takes up space. It can be un-hidden when needed.

6. Reduce the size of the volume bar at the top of the window. Again, it just takes up space, revert to the previous thinner bar.

I cannot believe that this stuff would be difficult to implement, and it would go a long way to reducing the rage most people are feeling at the moment.
Tauro Smolt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#252 - 2012-05-28 10:07:12 UTC
Хах,опяяяtь. Big smile

EVE FOREVER THE BEST.
Bim bo
SOMESOWHATTHEF
#253 - 2012-05-28 10:08:06 UTC
U broke the game ofc u should work on holiday soundwave!
infact call in more ppl and fix it.
new inventory is broke and even makes u lag out when dealing with
small amounts in cap ship.JB resources even lag when open'ed.
give us old system back tweak that,
dont make eve players have to go with less quality because of ur new console game.
eveplayers already paid plenty for that!

Give us back old inventory.
Blue Harrier
#254 - 2012-05-28 10:10:50 UTC
You requested feedback on things that would make things tolerable for us the users; these are the ‘improvements’ that would make the UI work for me;

First, bring back the single click buttons (or right click menu options), to do all the things we used to do. Open cargo hold while docked (on our active ship or another of our assembled but not active, ships), the Orca ore hold, maintenance bay and corp hangers, station containers, etc and get rid of the Captains Quarters and other right click ‘fluff’ options.

Make all windows remember the location, size, dependency, contents, and for goodness sake display the name of the container in the top window bar, just the name not all the other ‘stuff’ I know it’s an ‘Inventory’ what I want to know is which inventory.

Let me open a new complete window by shift (or double) clicking the Neocom button a second time so the window opens alongside the first window. The number of times I’ve tried doing that is beyond counting.

Let me save my filters to either a personal folder or a corp folder, or let me export and import them.

Also as I posted once before I am a visual not a text person, I like pictures, I like to sort or search with pictures, searching or filtering with text is fine if you know the name of what you’re looking for. This really hit me today when I was looking for a module but had no idea of the name but I could remember what it looked like.

As others have said, this would have been excellent used for the assets inventory and if you had tried just using it for that so we could use it in anger and give feedback it would have eased us into the change without all the anger you have today.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#255 - 2012-05-28 10:15:25 UTC
Quote from the Blog:

“Ship Hangars: Your active ship will be displayed in the ship hangar. It was a bit confusing that it would disappear. All assembled ships will now be displayed, regardless of activity state.”

What about unassembled ships? They are still ermmm..... ships.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2012-05-28 10:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
I've not been able to be very active on the forums for the last couple of days simple because my time is better spent fixing defects as it is.

First, on the SISI thing; it's true that we let a few issues slip us and that's regrettable, but it is simply a fact that not all issues surface on test servers. We certainly did fix a LOT of issues that we discovered through your feedback from SISI. But, not all of them sadly.

Revamping a fundamental system, used by every single player, such as the inventory system so that it will fit every player's needs and expectations from day one is a tall order to say the least. There is probably no other system within EVE that is as multidimensional as the inventory and the use cases seem to be endless. The old system had not changed much at all and most of you veterans could probably operate it at lightning speeds blindfolded. Having to waste time re-learning basic things is annoying as hell and I get it. I've been there myself. I would be pretty furious if someone forced me to use a different Python editor, and it would probably slow me down tremendously for the first couple of days or even weeks. A fitting punishment for my crimes maybe?

THE biggest complaint about the EVE UI, according to our surveys, is the number of windows needed to accomplish tasks. We identified the inventory as being one of the biggest violator and that's why we went on this journey (not because we like to spend Sunday afternoons on the EVE forums, lovely as they are, mind you!). A lot of things have changed in the world of user interfaces during the last 10 years, and I think it's safe to say that a game shipping with the old EVE inventory system EVE today would receive mixed reviews.

The old system had been brewing out in the wild for 9 years, but the new one for less than a week, so obviously it has not received the same amount of updates and fixes. We are, and will be working hard to make sure that no matter your profession in EVE, you will have an equally or faster way of doing what you need to do.

I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming. Telling us that it sucks won't help anyone, and I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible). Making it optional is also not optional (confusingly enough) as it would require us to maintain two systems side by side which would cause an exponential increase in code and interface complexity if we were to make a habit of it. It's not as simple or as good of an idea as it might seem at first.

One of the hardest part of EVE is dealing with the UI and we are constantly being asked to change it. When we do, people without exceptions ask for the old one back. Doing both is obviously impossible. There is still work to be done and work we shall.


Words fail me. I'm honestly at a complete loss at what to say in reply to this. I was expecting a reasoned rational for the changes, instead we get another 'I'm right and your wrong' from one of the dynamic duo.

Firstly I want numbers boy. The biggest complaint was the number of windows at anytime? I've played this game for three years and been socially active on the forums, traveled to Fanfest and London meets and I have never, EVER heard anyone make this complaint. So if your're going to use that as an excuse for your poor performance I want the numbers of complaints about the UI, the number of the complaints about the numbers of windows and I want them as a percentage of the total number of complaints about EVE. It that percentage is less than 30 percent, all that should tell anyone with an intelligence greater than a used teabag is that 70 percent of people were happy with the old UI and it should be low on your list of priorities.

Your claiming that feedback and suggestions were acted upon in Sisi? Sorry I was there, and that frankly is a bare faced lie. If you had truely listened, acted and followed through the proof of that would be that your precious Unifubared Inventory would still be on Sisi getting debugged. So your either lying or so far removed from reality that I'd worry about giving you a pair of scissors.

Your begging us to give it a try???!!!! What in the hell do you think we've doing for 5 weeks???!!!!!! This amount of rage about your deeply, deeply flawed concept doesn't come from people who don't like change it's coming from people who have tried this muddled mess and guess what? WE DON'T LIKE IT!! Hate it in fact. No amount of trying it is going to alter that fact. The game is virtually unplayable using it. Or perhaps I should say virtually unplayable and still enjoy it.

I'm not going to tell how to fix it. If you haven't figured out how to from all we've said here, the Sisi forums and the complaints then you shouldn't be working in this job.

You are still living this dream world, where if you build it they will come Optimal. After everything that has been pointed out about the failings of this misguided adventure, you're still defending your Unifubared Inventory like a petulant 5 year old.

Now allow to Soundwave to continue to try and fix the mess you and Arrow made. We prefer talking to grown-up here.


I wish I could fit all of these words into my sig.

Can we lock this thread after someone has quoted it? I mean, these words REALLY need to sink into CCP Optimal. He doesn't get it at all.

I mean, is anyone else in CCP agreeing with CCP Optimal's outlook on this?

So far, we've got Soundwave apologizing and other dev's boasting about their work and making sure we know that the inventory is not theirs.

Anyone else wanna step up to defend optimal?

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Tequila Breeze
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2012-05-28 10:27:59 UTC
The best improvement to the game would be to put down your intolerant behaviour to our feedbacks!
You ask for it, We reply to it, You ignore us ! WTF !
Jebediah MacAhab Dallocort
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2012-05-28 10:48:14 UTC
Dirch Passer wrote:
Okay, "I want the old UI back", "ROLLBACK NAO", "I want xxxx FIRED" etc. is getting old now. I'm fairly certain that every single employee at CCP got the message: this mess isn't good enough!.

Except they haven't, they're continuing to try and fix a broken pile of spaghetti code and stupid design decisions on a production server. They haven't listened to a goddamn thing.

This isn't hard to do, guys. Make a branch just for your stupid UI pet project and shove it onto SiSi so people can provide feedback and get it back to a functional level. Oh, and you should listen to this feedback instead of dismissing it like you did for an entire four weeks. You should also make the whole thing optional.

In the meantime, revert the UI code for TQ until SiSi says the new ****'s ready.

Then, I want you people to put down your keyboards and go back to university and re-learn Quality Control. Don't touch EVE until you and the rest of your team know what the hell you're doing.

Is this rude? Yes. Did you deserve it for not listening to beta testing feedback on SiSi and continuing to ignore feedback after a disaster of a deployment? Absolutely.

How to Improve Quality Assurance at CCP

Professional Programmer, DBA, Game Developer and Systems Analyst
arria Auscent
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2012-05-28 10:52:25 UTC
the only way you CANT use the old UI is if you deleted all the code and backups, which you have not done

What you mean to say is you WONT give us an option to use the old UI
You WONT rollback to the old UI

Any dev thats says CANT should be fired for incompetence
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#260 - 2012-05-28 10:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Abigail Sagan
I haven't seen anyone reporting this one yet:
This is only a minor thing since it does not seem to affect performance noticeably, but we can currently open multiple windows of the cargohold of the same ship at once. Ie: By shift clicking enough we can have twenty+ instances of the same cargohold open. I don't see any reason to allow that - if there is some rationale for that, don't mind me. I guess this is in part the reason why the windows don't remember their place & state too well.

Maybe the same applies to other containers too, I don't think I tested that.

And also CCP, in case you didn't realize it yet, your biggest mistake with the new UI is, that you ignored much of the player input from SiSi testing and put the new and 'improved' UI to Tranquility. If you hadn't ignored the player input, you would have had one less PR fiasco to worry about. Maybe next time you will do better.