Player Features and Ideas Discussion

With Inferno, coordinating a faction to sacrifice some LP one time as a whole to upgrade systems for a “Cash Out” made some sense. And no one grunted as hand over fist earning versus very little sacrifice. A player will happily depart from 10 to 50K in LP so that their extra LP goes to decreased sales costs so long as dozens of other players are doing it as well.

In actual practice, I’m not sure that FW really were keeping up with LP donations for the benefits other than one time cash outs.

With these costs now increasing by double and the clear fact that we as a faction won’t be just doing it one time, but actually having to keep up system levels for tier advantages to LP gain, it seems more than blatantly obvious that there will be a fundamental flaw.

If previously you could only get players to barely in small groups sacrifice LP for a one-time cash out, what chance do you have that players will donate twice as much LP to just maintain tiers?

LP donating for system upgrades is the flaw itself. There should be another control. Using the toils and labor of the minority that actually care about FW presence so that the majority can benefit is just not going to take place.

No matter what benefits and changes you make to the upgrades, it’s more important that you remove the LP donation as the control for upgrades. I’m not sure I see this pointed out enough.

when dust comes out omg. :)

^^ as above..

The tier multiplier should not apply to missions as missions don't affect the warzone in any way anyway.

Indeed.

Would be awesome if missions:
- Were restricted in destination to hostile held space.
- Applied some (or all) of their VP towards system occupancy.
(Should be careful not to allow it becoming easy mode when taking systems from a downtrodden though)
- Had poison pills to activate that wonderful fight profit or flight mechanism.

But it is so far down the list of things that is unlikely to be realised that it is pointless to debate. Factions within CCP are loathe/reluctant/scared of "forcing" people into a specific play style (PvP) and would have people who join a militia at war to grow flowers be allowed to tend their flowerbeds without the need of ever taking up arms (can't make this **** up .. hahahaha).

On a completely unrelated note:
Just spent some time studying the Amarr/Shakorite militia interface and the map/setup is even more lopsided than I realised.
Amarr are after the pre-patch flurry almost back to full system count, have upgraded most systems (not all fully) and are low tier2.
Minmatar have slightly more than 'base', have no upgraded systems that I can see and are high tier 3.

SORT THE DAMN MAP DISCREPANCY!

Once you know the backstory you will see Hans isn’t so innocent as he pretends. Much of what hans is claiming is pretty much taken directly off of Susan Blacks blog. That blog is controversial/some even refer to it as a “troll blog” because it is basically just minmatar propaganda and often clearly based on false assumptions which are clearly indicated in the comments and other blogs.


These false assumptions are well pointed out in the comments to her blogs, often by those in amarr militia. Hans and susan, however, never mentions those arguments and just continue to repeat their conclusions. So I have to bring them up again and again.

Example one:




He ignored the fact that her analysis is completely flawed because many of the minmatar plexing alts were plexing in caldari space where they don’t get vp. But after amarr hit tier 4 and they had more backwaters to plex the vp numbers skyrocketed that week. Wehn this is taken inot account, the numbers do, in fact, show that the army of pelxing alts have translated into noticible increases in captured plexes.

He admitted he saw the comments that demonstrate why her analysis is flawed. So why then is he presenting it as if it is a valid conclusion without even acknowledging the large error in her analysis?

Example 2:

That amarr only made it to tier 4 due to our saviour nulli secunda coming in. This was another well known claim that was lifted off of susan and other minmatar trolls. It was pretty much shot down by people who kept track of the progress amarr was making before nulli even joined. It is also currently debunked by anyone who want to look at the current fw ui and see how many systems amarr has vulnerable. So why is hans repeating and not even attempting to address the problems with this theory?

Well I think its because its clear that the fact that amarr can make a comeback is due to no lp for defensive plexing. And the minmatar want very much to be able to continue to farm systems they already captured.

So Hans continues to try to feed the garbage line:



And several others like it.

Of course he never presents the good reasons to think amarr likely would have at least accomplished this without nulli, even though he read plenty of them. No he is not offering that side at all. That is why I have to post them again in this thread. Because he is only seeing one side of things.

Hans we already can pull ourselves up and have without any savior. Your system where people are immediately rewarded for piling on the winning side will not help the underdog. There will be no bootstraps to pull onto.

Which brings me to example three:

Right after inferno was released it was clear to susan that no lp for defensive plexing was going to be a thorn in minmatar’s side. It was going to mean amarr would likely be able to come back regardless of their current tier because the minmatar farmers work off greed. So she started making posts to change this on this forum, and made about 5 different blog posts trying to argue they should give lp for defensive plexing. Hans basically supported this the whole way through. Even though it was pointed out this would destroy the balance early on.

Even on his most recent blog post we see this:



Does he even mention the down sides of giving lp for defensive plexing? Not a bit.

Yet his concern that minmatar are being punished with inferno is right up there with the more drastic problems faction war faces.

I mean really hans, do you really think one of the major problems with inferno is that it punished minmatar too much for winning?

If Hans was objective and pointed out the disadvantages of these proposals I wouldn’t have to.But he doesn’t, so I have to go through all this stuff again and again. It is a bit exasperating when he pretends he has never heard about the problems with susans conclusions someone should point them out.

Seriously hans if you want to be seen as not biased stop parroting what susan black says wholesale without any mention of the well documented problems with her biased views.

Not sure what you mean. That is what he actually said.

Sure enough the first thing addressed is the minmatar's view that they are being punished for winning too much.

Let me ask you:

How is it even possible that someone could conclude that the problem with inferno was it was punishing the winning side too much?

The most important question is 'Why do we want to hold space?' This is a question for not only low sec but null sec as well. It's also a question that needs to be answered to make any upgrades in the FW system worthwhile.

Every blue moon I get in the mood for something slower and pull out Civilization V. That game to anyone who has played it is all about resources. With every new game they spawn randomly around the map. And every game I may find myself without some vital item that ill either have to trade or wage war to get. It's a pretty basic concept really.

With the exception of a few notable examples, there is little resource scarcity in Eve. Rather then ABC ores being all over high and low sec, there should be veins of specific ores that run from high to null sec. The more numerous the ore, the more numerous and deep the veins. Imagine if one if the rarer ores was present in the Amarr/ Minmatar war theater?

Concerned that no one would consider mining in low sec? CCP should think of new ships that would allow pilots a chance to pull it off. That is idea number one.

Idea number two is to spice up low and null with benefits and FW with combinations.

Industry:
Manufacturing jobs started in low sec require 5% less materials. Ore refined in low sec produces 5% less waste. In Null both of these bonuses become 10%.

Specific locations:
Station x in Eszur is famous for it's efficiency during the rebellion in churning out assault frigates. All Wolfs and Jaguars produced there require 5% less materials. (On top of low sec 5%)

Victory conditions:
Kamela has three tech moons around gas giant x. These moons are toxic due to the planet's abnormally large radiation belt. These moons are normally inaccessible. Every Minmatar system with a temperate planet conquered by the Amarr militia allows one tech moon to come into play. (Slave labor)

Last stand - militia is reduced to three systems. LP earned in those systems at triple rate. Adjacent systems at double.

War's momentum - whichever side owns Kourm, huola, and Auga gets 50% reduction in pos fuel throughout the region.

These are all just random ideas I'm throwing out there - hopefully you get the idea.

While you are at it make rancer have 0 jump gates ok?

Dot lan maps with the proposed systems highlighted:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar/Kurniainen,Isbrabata,Siseide,Eszur,Gulmorogod,Egmar

So instead of having a bottleneck in Hofjaldgund, we'll have a bottleneck in Eszur?

Why not a Siseide <-> Frerstorn (or Gebuladi) gate instead?