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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#41 - 2012-05-17 22:04:21 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.


If one side of FW gets curb stomped by the other it should at least have a target rich environment that it can choose where and when to strike. There are intel tools that allow militia pilots to see if plexes have been run in a system. It would be too much to allow more of a heads up. If your side conquered 70+ systems, you should have to patrol them.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#42 - 2012-05-17 23:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

  • Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
  • Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
  • Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space


Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.

Thanks for your time!

Getting back to this.

System Upgrades: IMO, any efficiency gained through system upgrades pales in comparison to the cost of pumping 10k to 20k LP into a given system every day. So, neutrals will still not be able to create an industrial backbone in low security space.

The only real current benefit to system upgrades is for cashing out LP. Therefore, systems will be upgraded in spurts as large groups of players cash out their LP savings accounts all at once.

Cynojammer: The only reason players at fanfest were opposed to cynojammers is that their null alliance will not be able to afk-control high value low sec moons. There I said it. They would actually have to live in system and defend them with real ships instead. Any other reason - like reduced logistics capabilities (which, btw, is not true because there are alternate routes outside of FW space) - is a diversion.

Denial of Docking Rights: Denial of docking rights for only when system is upgraded was a brilliant suggestion since it gives players a means of evacuating their stuff when the other side is much stronger than they are. If one side wants to lock down another side, it will be at great cost since they will have to continually pump LP into the system. Perhaps L0 - denial of agents, L1 - Denial of services, L2 - Denial of docking rights. Whatever is appropriate.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#43 - 2012-05-18 04:02:52 UTC
My corporation conducted "neutral" industry in low-sec Black Rise for years* and I think your industry bonuses are laughable.

The most used slots in a low-sec station are Copy & ME. PE, Invention, & Manufacturing tend to be ignored since high-sec has plenty of them, resulting in no shortage of availability in low-sec. A neutral industrial corporation can setup a starbase to meet most of their Copy & ME needs (as well as their PE & Invention) in fairly short order.

I-Hub upgrades should provide benefits for the militia's combat operations first. If Industry gets a boost from it, the benefits should be tied to being part of the militia and worth defending the space over.

I would suggest the I-Hub providing gang bonuses to the militia members comparable to that of a Battlecruiser fitted with Gang Assist Modules, varying in capability based on the I-Hub level.

Secondly, I can see the I-Hub providing a Starbase Fuel bonus for the controlling militia and an equal penalty for the opposing militias. This again would vary with the I-Hub level and might go as high as 25% (null-sec).

*Through December 2011, generally in support of the Caldari militia with sales in Ichoriya and production in low-sec.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Galatica789
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#44 - 2012-05-18 10:06:12 UTC
+1 For cynojammers
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#45 - 2012-05-18 11:33:43 UTC
Love the idea on industry... But no need to allow neuts. They need to choose a side.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#46 - 2012-05-18 13:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
I for one can't wait for all these Frieghters, Minors and Indy to come to Low Sec. After all, the Rewards are clearly so much better then High sec the insanely greater risk is totally worth...Yeah, even I can't be that sarcastic.

Why would Indy guys come to low sec just for Extra slots? Did high sec run out of Moons to anchor pos's on? You've not increased the belts, PI or Complex sites? Low sec Miners have a life span of about 50 seconds after the first guy not them entires local. All that risk for belts which are pretty simular to high sec. Then theres grav sites, sure, cause no one probes in low sec.

Comfirming when we dcan and see miners we move on and leave them alone.

Its nice you want to push for Indy in low sec, but never going to happen when the rewards are a joke compared to the risk. Low sec is more dangerous then Null Sec. Any corp looking to move into low sec for mining, Pi and so on, is one soon to be farmed for tears dead ass corp.

I personally have a not blue, Alpha stance. As does pretty much EVERYONE I've met in low sec.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#47 - 2012-05-18 13:55:21 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.


If one side of FW gets curb stomped by the other it should at least have a target rich environment that it can choose where and when to strike. There are intel tools that allow militia pilots to see if plexes have been run in a system. It would be too much to allow more of a heads up. If your side conquered 70+ systems, you should have to patrol them.



I was hoping ccp would bring more actual pvp to faction war not more "patroling" (aka warping around looking for something to fight.) Right now eve gets to be pretty boring from "patroling" all night with no fights.

Now when we won't even be able to dock in enemy space I anticipate even more fruitless "patroling." Unless of course you want to join the blobs on the "front lines."

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#48 - 2012-05-18 17:30:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.


If one side of FW gets curb stomped by the other it should at least have a target rich environment that it can choose where and when to strike. There are intel tools that allow militia pilots to see if plexes have been run in a system. It would be too much to allow more of a heads up. If your side conquered 70+ systems, you should have to patrol them.



I was hoping ccp would bring more actual pvp to faction war not more "patroling" (aka warping around looking for something to fight.) Right now eve gets to be pretty boring from "patroling" all night with no fights.

Now when we won't even be able to dock in enemy space I anticipate even more fruitless "patroling." Unless of course you want to join the blobs on the "front lines."



All I'm saying is that there needs to be a mechanism that kicks in to bring equilibrium after one side "wins" the FW war. If Minmatar completely conquers the 70 systems, for example, they should have a difficult time defending those 70 systems. Implementing an intel tool that helps them does nothing for allowing the Amarr to make a comeback.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#49 - 2012-05-18 17:47:44 UTC
Here is a wild suggestion that would really raise the stakes. Captured border systems can be upgraded to expand your militia's influence. Here's how it would work:

Minmatar capture Kamela. At a higher upgrade level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems are lowered by 1 sec status. Tuomuta would become a sec 4.0 and be put into play. Ohide and Choonka would go to 5.0. At the next level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems would go down two sec status. Tuomuta is already low sec and would not be touched. Ohide and Choonka would go to 4.0 sec status and be put into play.

Make two sec points the limit of influence. Your war zone could be pushed up to 7.0 systems before you couldn't expand - that would be the hard limit. Looking at the map you could overrun or isolate vast chunks of the Amarr empire. If you want people to sit up, take notice, and get involved - that might be the way to do it.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#50 - 2012-05-18 17:53:51 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Here is a wild suggestion that would really raise the stakes. Captured border systems can be upgraded to expand your militia's influence. Here's how it would work:

Minmatar capture Kamela. At a higher upgrade level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems are lowered by 1 sec status. Tuomuta would become a sec 4.0 and be put into play. Ohide and Choonka would go to 5.0. At the next level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems would go down two sec status. Tuomuta is already low sec and would not be touched. Ohide and Choonka would go to 4.0 sec status and be put into play.

Make two sec points the limit of influence. Your war zone could be pushed up to 7.0 systems before you couldn't expand - that would be the hard limit. Looking at the map you could overrun or isolate vast chunks of the Amarr empire. If you want people to sit up, take notice, and get involved - that might be the way to do it.


I'm not so sure about lowering sec status of systems, but what I'd LOVE to see is an increase in taxation or something along those lines, as a penalty for a faction falling behind. What if each faction had a "war acquisitions" initiative where they needed more income to fuel their front line fighters when the war wasn't going their way? Imagine if Faction Warfare could influence Jita's pricing? That tax could even be used as extra direct incentive for those pilots enlisting in the militia that was falling behind, like a "hazard pay" to encourage militia fighters to stay in the game when the chips are down and give them the resouces they need to keep going.

This is all very rough and brainstormy of course, but that's along the lines of what I'd like to see. A system that gives real value and meaning to the war in the context of the entire game, while making the system a bit more elastic in terms of enrollment incentives for a faction getting steamrolled by another.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#51 - 2012-05-18 18:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.


If one side of FW gets curb stomped by the other it should at least have a target rich environment that it can choose where and when to strike. There are intel tools that allow militia pilots to see if plexes have been run in a system. It would be too much to allow more of a heads up. If your side conquered 70+ systems, you should have to patrol them.



I was hoping ccp would bring more actual pvp to faction war not more "patroling" (aka warping around looking for something to fight.) Right now eve gets to be pretty boring from "patroling" all night with no fights.

Now when we won't even be able to dock in enemy space I anticipate even more fruitless "patroling." Unless of course you want to join the blobs on the "front lines."



All I'm saying is that there needs to be a mechanism that kicks in to bring equilibrium after one side "wins" the FW war. If Minmatar completely conquers the 70 systems, for example, they should have a difficult time defending those 70 systems. Implementing an intel tool that helps them does nothing for allowing the Amarr to make a comeback.



I agree with your general view that this current mechanic is strongly biased toward snowballing in favor of those who have an advantage.

However there are so many ways they can balance that out, I don't think they should jettison an idea that will actually lead to more frequent pvp in to claim they are trying to balance the system.

Edit for example if one side lost a certain percent of their systems ccp could allow them to have a larger ship type enter each plex. So cruisers could enter minors for the losing side but not for the winning side bcs could enter mediums etc. The rp explanations are many if you need one.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2012-05-18 20:56:54 UTC
How would fighting cruisers with frigs/dessies improve combat? If anything you end up taking blobbing beyond mandatory when hitting those systemsSmile

Suggested elsewhere that defensive plexing should be done with considerable time benefit (ie. 3-5 times faster) than offensive ditto.
Would make attacking space a much more involved and focused endeavour instead of the "run everything in constellation" approach we are seeing now .. combined with diminishing returns (and its inverse) you'd reach an equilibrium based on available manpower with pushes (which we love) bringing loads of pain, suffering, blood and tears (which we also love).
* Note: Faster defensive + inverse warzone control modifier would ideally cancel each other out.

Favouring snowballing is all fine and dandy, but we need some mechanic that allows the downtrodden to make a come back or it will degrade to pure meta-gaming and farming.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#53 - 2012-05-18 21:18:33 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
How would fighting cruisers with frigs/dessies improve combat? If anything you end up taking blobbing beyond mandatory when hitting those systemsSmile.


Usually if one side is winning it is because they can field a larger number of people. If you can only field 3 cruisers and your enemy can field 8 you won't have much of a fight if any at all. If you can field 3 cruisers and your enemy can field 8 destroyers you just might have a fight. I know its not a big serious null sec fleet battle but I think it would be allot of fun.


Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Suggested elsewhere that defensive plexing should be done with considerable time benefit (ie. 3-5 times faster) than offensive ditto.
Would make attacking space a much more involved and focused endeavour instead of the "run everything in constellation" approach we are seeing now .. combined with diminishing returns (and its inverse) you'd reach an equilibrium based on available manpower with pushes (which we love) bringing loads of pain, suffering, blood and tears (which we also love).
* Note: Faster defensive + inverse warzone control modifier would ideally cancel each other out.

Favouring snowballing is all fine and dandy, but we need some mechanic that allows the downtrodden to make a come back or it will degrade to pure meta-gaming and farming.


Attacking space will already be much harder. You can't dock there, you have to fight rats, and it takes way to long to flip a system. I don't agree that one sides 15 hours of grinding should be undone in 3 hours.

We were looking for ways to balance things and help the side that is losing. Your proposal makes the system even more unbalanced against the losing side.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
praznimrak
Level Up
#54 - 2012-05-22 10:54:55 UTC
Hi all.
I was in FW whan it had start and since then most of fixis that CCP did ......well what to say it was obvious that there is no real understanding who and how plays FW.

But ill just comment some stuff we are getting in this hmmmm EXPANSION.

LP for plexing:

That did sound like great idea but once more implementation is fail: NO LP gain for defensive plexing???? SO if opponent plex for 7 hours in my system, and they will because only offensives plexing give lp,IM suposed to spend 7 hours of boring timer orbiting for no reward???Ah you may say but you are defending your system! Well i prefer go offensives plexing and earn LPs and get some fights,and i know for sure that most of FW players feel the same.So i expect to see tons of ppl attacking and farming LPs and no one defending the systems.

We know that lp are divide in fleet,but once more CCP make huge mistake.For a bunker bashing they give 40.000 lp?????
You nead at least 30-40 players to bash the bunker and it takes at least 30 min if in hi dps ships.So what dose the bunker bushing pilot get for the most important action in FW (system takeover) that normally last for 30 min minimum???
HE GETS 1000 LPs!!!! Isnt that awsom.

SYSTEM UPGR:
FAIL FAIL FAIL.
Useless upgrades that no Fw pilot is benefit from,we lose pods once a year,and almost no player i know is into industry.So why the benefits of us fighting over systems goes to some neutral industrial????

We have a tons of systems in FW that don't have station and once that do, don't have medical and industry slots,so WHY O WHY we should put our offensive plexing earned LPs into systems that will not have any benefit of it?
For the war zone control you may answer!!
But what control do you have if a single player in t1 frig can plex in your no station system that you did upgrade and take all your LPS from upgrades and still you nead to deplex all he has done for no reward at all.Means you lose upgrades,you lose LPs and you still have to spin timers for 0 reward?????
REALY CCP you can do beter.

I will leave it here.There is a way too many things that ccp is doing wrong but this 2 concepts will turn FW into something that no FW pilots wants.

My youtube chanell: http://www.youtube.com/user/EveOnlineGameplay
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2012-05-22 16:59:48 UTC
Cearain wrote:
..We were looking for ways to balance things and help the side that is losing. Your proposal makes the system even more unbalanced against the losing side.

Yes, if and only if, tactics remain the same. An offensive campaign is now hit a system and hit everything within 1-2 jumps while waiting for spawns in target all the while a semi-heavy blob lingers in target system to be called to any counter.

Try doing that when defender can reship to appropriate ships for each and every plex. Attacking sovereign soil is not a 'job' for weekend warriors .. sure they can make it so like they did in null, but look how that turned out. Either make offensives "major" things or make the pew flow fast and freely .. neither holds true and never has (least not mechanics wise) ..
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#56 - 2012-05-22 17:18:47 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cearain wrote:
..We were looking for ways to balance things and help the side that is losing. Your proposal makes the system even more unbalanced against the losing side.

Yes, if and only if, tactics remain the same. An offensive campaign is now hit a system and hit everything within 1-2 jumps while waiting for spawns in target all the while a semi-heavy blob lingers in target system to be called to any counter.

Try doing that when defender can reship to appropriate ships for each and every plex. Attacking sovereign soil is not a 'job' for weekend warriors .. sure they can make it so like they did in null, but look how that turned out. Either make offensives "major" things or make the pew flow fast and freely .. neither holds true and never has (least not mechanics wise) ..



I'm sorry, but I really do not understand what you are saying.

Yes I agree that it will be harder to offensively plex when the defender can reship in the system and you can't. You want to also give the defender an extra advantage of a shorter plex timer.

But giving more advantages to the defenders, will be giving more advantages to the winning side.

For example, the minmatar are winning now because they hold more systems than the amarr. If we make it easier of them to defend those systems we are making it easier for them not for the amarr.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#57 - 2012-05-23 22:35:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:
But giving more advantages to the defenders, will be giving more advantages to the winning side.
I would reprhase it. Giving more advantages to the defender leads to fewer fights because the attacker has to think he has a chance before he does anything. It's the attacking side that initiates pew and therefore they should get as much of an advantage as possible. At least err on the side of helping the attacker.
Cosmoes
Peraka
#58 - 2012-05-24 02:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmoes
Ok right now if you defend a plex you get a standing bonus to the FW corp (which I think and a couple of people have also said was nerfed with this patch). standing with this corp gives a promotion, higher standing than max is no different and it's very hard to think of circumstances where this would go down by any appreciable amount. It does not give any LP, or any faction standing. It also repairs damage from offensive plexing.


This is pretty bad as there's absolutely no personal profit (after the promotions) or even any real faction profit aside from preventing loss as a reason to defensive plex.


Now while the defensive plexing is bad it may sorta balance out as this could be the mechanic that keeps FW from snowballing too hard. The way it would do that is to just bore defenders into oblivion by making them sit there for hours orbiting a button, shooting nothing (not even rats) and getting absolutely no rewards for it. This may work as a means to let there be a comeback from the loosing side but I'd say it's a very bad one.


A couple of suggestions to improve defensive plexing rewards aside from the obvious LP reward.

1. Give faction standing for defending plexes. Right now this doesn't happen except through promotions which are limited to 10 per character. Faction standing can actually go down unlike FW corp standing through dozens of means so this would give a slight reward for players who have been in FW for a while.

2. Defending plexes put LP into the systems upgrades. Obviously would be less than gained from offensive plexing, may need limits such as can only gain back LP that was recently lost etc. This would give a reason

3. Temporary boost to LP gained in system or LP gained over all through FW or LP discounts. Similar to how current over status of number of systems captured and upgrade level increases after defending a plex this is temporarily boosted.


The iHub upgrades... as a FW/industrial player (yeah we exist.... or maybe it's just me) these seem like they will help a bit but it's been like one day and already I see most of the ME research slots gained through this filled up in my area. manufacturing in low sec is just self inflicted pain and while my old 45 mil isk clones are now nice and cheap I don't lose pods often (I honestly can't remember the last one). Now how could we improve this.

1. Make them limited to FW players.... would do practically nothing, jumping 1 or two research/manufacturing alts into FW and keep them logged off in station and never participate you could use all the FW slots you want. Pirates don't really use anything but the clone bay and that isn't nearly enough for them to worry about. If there was actually some way to participate in FW aside from shooting things maybe something here but there isn't aside from selling ships to your allies. Maybe an idea here would be to add a high isk cost to using these slots (10-20 mil) and have that reduced by your standing or promotions.

2. Give better bonuses: research time reduction, research cost reduction etc. These would help more obviously. One thing you should look into is increase exploration sites via upgrades, I can't imagine anyone belt mining in low sec but mining a good grav site is much more realistic. Radar & Magnet are always nice and have some risk based potential for profit that's not too different from what most FW people do. If you add more ladar and we might actually see more booster running people in low sec and that would make me very happy.

Aside from that the only industry I see with some small potential to move here is invention, smaller transport amounts and with datacores coming out of faction stores and god knows how many pos in low sec there may be some crossover. If labs gave some bonus to invention this may actually drive some small scale t2 industry out here...... unfortunately most FW fighting is in t1 ships (destroyers) thanks to limitations on the plex size, t2 modules may work though.



Right now the main issue I'd worry about though (if I wasn't in the minmatar militia Lol) is the snowball that seems to be encouraged by the current system.

The best I can come up with here is giving higher rewards for those who have been pushed back to a few systems. When your entire nation is funding a few systems and you've got 60 target systems to choose from earning LP should be very very fast. My idea is the more you control the more you get per LP but the less LP you get the less systems you own the more LP you get and the less per LP. Should keep the profit per LP say with 2-4x scale at any time but if you save LP when your low and spend them when they are worth more later it can be extremely profitable.

can't really think of any better ideas for this problem. it's not an easy one to fix What?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2012-05-24 03:19:46 UTC
Cearain wrote:
..For example, the minmatar are winning now because they hold more systems than the amarr. If we make it easier of them to defend those systems we are making it easier for them not for the amarr.

You staring yourself blind on that one line and missing the picture entirely. Will try to make it clearer:

- Diminishing returns: Time to cap plex increases as warzone control does, can use modifier, never faster than now.
- Inverse Diminishing returns: Time to cap plex decreases as warzone control does (maybe even by more than modifier). Coming back from eating dust needs to be a lot easier, call it the FW version of "Fight or Flight" adrenaline kick.
- Defensive plexing bump: Time to cap defensive plex reduced by 50-75%. Not getting paid and is essentially just a matter of slamming a door.
Note: I am in no way attached to this bit, it stems from the weeks/months I spent orbiting alone to defend Sisiede/Lantorn and the deep'ish systems together with Damar after he tried making his standings point by abusing the snot out of it (CCP still hasn't gotten the point though Roll).

So if warzone control is maxed out, the snowball may enjoy a total of x16 LP in store compared to opponent, but the enemy will be able to cap plexes in a measly 25% of the time whereas they need 4x the time (at max warzone control even a defensive bump won't help a snowball).
After a brief period of people orbiting timers and raging on forums about said timers the two warzones will reach a balance based on available manpower/time, in the case of Amarr/Mimes considering the large surplus of bodies the Mimes have, the Warzone Control numbers would probably end up at x0 for Amarr and x2 for Mimes.

What I am trying to accomplish with this is to avoid any side from doing a massive landgrab and then going full carebear with little need for defense other than making sure DT plexes are secured and contested states don't go too high. The whole ability of "owning" more than one can use/inhabit trend is what has broken null and I am loathe to let it happen in FW (too late I know, because :lolCCP:).
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#60 - 2012-05-24 04:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
I like Veshta's ideas alot. It really encourages people to join the losing side for profit. I don't think defensive plexing should be rewarded for it's own sake though. It would be too easy to exploit. A system's upgrades should be exciting enough to defend. Plain and simple.