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Incursion changes

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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#121 - 2012-05-06 17:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
DarthNefarius wrote:
I'm sure you son't believe in the statistics supporting global warming have been 'smashed' too huh? Roll

When all else fails: straw man arguments.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2012-05-06 17:33:50 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:

Most people I know disagree with you. You think I should be banned for filing petitions & bug reports? WOW are you stupid as your posts are in real life. I can hardly believe Your trolling is believed by CCP but then again look at what CCP's aux paus have been like the past year

Tippia although I disagree with I respect in her numbers based arguements. You have not made a cogent arguement based on a verifiable statisic yet

Of course most people you know would disagree with me, from what I have seen you literally do nothing but run incursions. That doesn't exactly open you up to a varied Eve online demographic.

As for numbers based arguments, I believe me and Tippia repeatedly smashed your attempts to use statistics
.


I'm sure you son't believe in the statistics supporting global warming have been 'smashed' too huh? Roll



Global Warming? Really, Just Really?

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#123 - 2012-05-06 17:36:18 UTC
Posting to confirm incursion farming is the number one cause of global climate change.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2012-05-06 17:41:44 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Posting to confirm incursion farming is the number one cause of global climate change.



It seem's that there is two people Fishing in this thread.

XD

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#125 - 2012-05-06 18:07:08 UTC
Annunaki soldier wrote:
Xorv wrote:

Yes I have considered it, I'm pretty sure just about everyone that has criticized High Sec Incursions has done so as well. What you describe..players PvEing safely to buy shiny stuff to PvP with in a separate zone is Themepark MMO gameplay. It isn't appropriate for game that describes itself as both Sandbox and PvP and I and many others don't want it in this game. All the good farms must be in areas fully susceptible to PvP, anything less than this is going to negatively effect Risk vs Reward balance in EVE and be viewed as a failure on the part of CCP in delivering their game as advertised.

If this means you use cheap ships that's fine, that's your choice. If it means you don't play at all, that's fine to, better to lose a few players than turn EVE into Space WoW.



Where is the wrong about that ? So taking your concideration , everyone on this game should try and have fun of the game like you do ? How about turning this upside down and make the game pve and of course if this mean lose some people that pvp ...

Be open minded. It is a game and CCP need to have people paying for it. After is it is a company. Thats why wow have the largest community and money income to blizzard. They try to improve aspects of the game that are either pvp and pve (failgame for me when it comes to content and how things are there but still respect to a company that changed a lot at mmo setting the game as a standar to compare)


Your asking me to be open minded?!? You're the one that has come to a Sandbox MMORPG built around PvP and demanded the game be changed to accommodate Themepark PvE. The gameplay and associated high rewards you're demanding ruins the Risk vs Reward balance and the Sandbox nature of the rest of the game. It's you that's wanting to impose your gameplay on us (players that appreciate Sandbox PvP MMOs), do you not understand that?

I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but EVE copying WoW does not make it WoW, it makes it a WoW clone. WoW clones do not have the numbers that Blizzard does, many fail soon after launch. So, don't even try to pull the WoW gameplay means more subs because it's BS. EVE as space WoW would lose it's core player base that have played for years, and then soon after lose the bulk of it's Themepark PvEers as they got bored and went onto the next shiny thing that offers them PvE raids and duels they can show off the labor of their PvE grinding. Seriously, just no!
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-05-06 18:34:54 UTC
it is more simple that that. I never really suggested to change the way YOU play. But i see that thinking what i said got your attention. Evolving something means you have to find ways to cover the playerbase. And you have to cover as much as possible of that pie. Incursions are ment to be the cooperative pve stuff of eve. YES PVE . There is no this game is pvp or this game is pve. This game is all about both. Both communities pay for the game and have the right to ask for things. By forcing a non pvper to pvp will only make him quit the game. And before you say let him quit its eve , think it via-versa Blink

Now again to incursion for the last time. Incursions benefited the pvp part of the game. And they required team effort. Yes i am from those that say they needed a bit tuning but not like this. They made it worthless . The main reason people where on VG was that fewer people as fleet ment you could actually play and not waiting to fill the gaps. You want to adress the shiny fleets isk farming ? Make them more viable to lower skilled players and make ass or hq attractive to shiny fleets. It will balance things out .

Ride hard, live with passion 
Ahbu Kahn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2012-05-06 18:54:36 UTC
It seems to me that removing the 10% Payout Nerf, is a great idea. I also agree that the VG level of difficulty is good, except for the OTAs. OTAs feel like an AS Site. I think removing the need to Hack the Towers would be better or perhaps remove the towers Repp ability and add more NPC Logi..


In terms of AS, the level of difficulty is Ok. I would increase the payout "tho"; for all the work you do in an AS site, the payout is not worth the effort.

So In summary, IMHO

1. Remove the VG 10% payout Nerf, leave the level difficulty as it is, say for the OTAs.
2. Remove the Towers Rep ability from the OTAs or Replace with Sansha Logi
3. Increase the AS Payout.

Thanks SoundWave
Me 1st
Black Skaven Yes Corporation
#128 - 2012-05-06 19:03:07 UTC
What CCP did here is smack us in the face with their huge epeins and laugh about it. I'd post a link but might be grounds for a ban :P
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2012-05-06 19:24:32 UTC
Me 1st wrote:
What CCP did here is smack us in the face with their huge epeins and laugh about it. I'd post a link but might be grounds for a ban :P



That was inspiring, Maybe a valid argument?

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Me 1st
Black Skaven Yes Corporation
#130 - 2012-05-06 19:39:44 UTC
Why make a valid argument? They dont listen to us anyway. They hear what they want to hear and then twist it and contort it to screw it up the best they can then say here you go we fixxed your problem. When what all they did is cause more problems to try and fix to create even more problems. Its in their blood I guess because its in their history thats been proven already.
Jonny Frost
RavenhoId
#131 - 2012-05-06 20:40:57 UTC
I'll take the risk of wasting my time to attempt to post something constructive...

Vanguards are now just not practical. Reversing the 10% payout wont really make a difference IMO. The damage has really been done to the people that fly them that as some are now un-sure of how to do them and also lost the motivation to learn due.

Ignoring the 10% change I believe the spawns are now too diverse making fleet composition for even well skilled adaptable fleets difficult! To clarify it has not made the site "harder" or more "risky" but more challenging to maintain a fleet with the "ideal" ships. Making public fleets non existent. To prevent an essay.... I won't carry on about the problem.

Fix...? Leave the current 10% nerf but revert sites back to how they were. Let the dust settle and hopefully we will see a flood back into incursions and then make further changes in the future. I would love to see diversity in the sites however that needs to be achieved with more complexity rather than "lets just throw some more of those in"....

Even such think like an old OTA that rarely, if an unknown Auga had not died by the final wave, a superior wave of Mara's would spawn to try and save the deltole - maybe if you manage to kill that specific Auga or maybe it was a Tama the Mara's would bug out.... This is getting off my point though but more thought out changes to make it interesting would also then make the site "harder".

Assaults... I still think the payout needs to be buff 10-15% just to keep them competitive if the VG's return to pre-nerf to make fleets/FC more determined to set up Assaults rathar than VG's. Also a tweak of NCN to keep them consistent with other Assaults even with a re-ship. IMO a perfect NCN fleet should be able to do them faster than other Assault sites - just like the pre-nerf NCO' but by sub-optimal at other sites. Maybe making more cruiser sized vessle needed but less damage needed on the Battleship side. (Being able to use command ships would also be pretty cool!)

HQ's - dont run them but to keep in with the motivation for fleets/FC to run bigger/larger sites make the payout reflect this.

Again, IMO a perfect skilled/fitted fleet running sites back-to-back should be able to make 120mil/hr in VG's.... 160mil/hr in Assaults and 200mil/hr in HQ's. In reality these numbers being less due to breaks, or not perfect skills or fittings.

TL:DR....Main focus/problem of the nerf? CCP bite off more than they could chew. Attempted to sort the flavor of the year VG's as well as making sites harder and more diverse. Main focus of my suggestion - revert back to pre-nerf and tackle one obsticle at a time. First, the overwhelming obsession with Vanguards by better distribution of isk between the VG/AS/HQ. After a few weeks or months when there is a good spread of isk being made from all classes of sites look into the rare occasion of random spawns but make these spawns tactical rather than fundamental to the site.

Jonny
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#132 - 2012-05-06 21:03:28 UTC
Why not get with the people who pledged loyalty to Sansha in the Live Events (such as myself) and let us participate and get blown up by some incursion people. I am sure that some adding some humans would make things much more interesting, and I don't mind dying, after all There is no death in Nation.

Basically, CCP can get free labour out of us in the form of acting. I mean, free is good right CCP?

Aside from getting nuked suiciding into a goonswarm fleet to stop them from hindering the masters plans.... I have no exp running incursions due to my toons RP stance.
Andochas
TechnoCore
#133 - 2012-05-06 22:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Andochas
The Quick Answer:

Remove the 10% payout reduction in Vanguards. Also, as suggested:
Keith Planck (#63)
Herr Ronin (#83)
OTA Suggestion: Bring the Hacking array forward so it is 50km away, This enables a logi to fit a hacker and still maintain cap chain and rep's.

t8xxic Thiesant (#38)
Excellent suggestions, though I prefer the OTA solution above.
Andochas
TechnoCore
#134 - 2012-05-06 22:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andochas
Andochas wrote:
The Quick Answer:

Remove the 10% payout reduction in Vanguards. Also, as suggested:
Keith Planck (#63)
Herr Ronin (#83)
OTA Suggestion: Bring the Hacking array forward so it is 50km away, This enables a logi to fit a hacker and still maintain cap chain and rep's.

t8xxic Thiesant (#38)
Excellent suggestions, though I prefer the OTA solution above.


The Quick Explanation:

The increased completion requirements from the Escalation patch are enough to drastically reduce the average payout of Incursions. However, the high potential payout (though cut from before) of Elite Vanguard Fleets needs to stay high, as the lure for lone PvE players to join the greater EVE community.

As the whiners' heads explode from this comment, think on this: Do you nerf all market transactions because the Goon's master trader controls billions of ISK in goods and they can profit immensely from market swings of their own making? Max skilled characters working in a coordinated effort will always be able to vastly outperform a solo player. Just as the max skilled, incredibly expensive (30B ISK), shiny Elite Vanguard fleets should be able to achieve an ISK/hr target that will send Tipia on another rant.
TA5E
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2012-05-06 22:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: TA5E
I've done a few incursions post-patch and they are fine, I don't mind the reward nerf. Pushing people towards larger sites is good, less fighting over OTAs (that was a thing I hated). Only thing that annoys me is the time it takes to form up a fleet for the larger sites. Assault/HQ is like 1h+, then people drop out between sites, so at least a 10-15min downtime between sites, that is if the whole fleet doesn't drop out.

Oh yea and Concord LP ain't worth much, which bugs me. (There isn't really any market for +6% in Jita)
Andochas
TechnoCore
#136 - 2012-05-06 22:22:33 UTC
The Detailed Answer:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Making NPC groups dynamic and stopping blitzing works as intended for Vanguards. I'm considering reversing the 10% income change, to increase their value slightly again.

"works as intended" - Wrong. The crushing Vanguard nerfs are killing the Incursion communities. If it weren't for the dedication of FCs in exclusive channels, and of the public channel "The Valhalla Project", Incursions would be dead. BTL Pub has gone from posted fits to a chat channel, and armor fleets are gone. CFC (Goons) have already said low sec/null sec incursion fleets are dead.
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:

As a part of the incursion group you are speaking of I can confirm this CFC incursion group has has been shut down until something changes.

The death of vanguards means the influence bars stay red during weekdays, only to move on weekends. Those influence bars are visible to all players. With a quick check of the Incursions tab, a player can decide whether they want to make the 20 or so jumps to the current Incursion, or do something else. Right now, the answer is, "do something else."

CCP Soundwave and CCP Affinity, do NOT be afraid to read the walls of text in this thread and the locked thread of comments from SiSi. The leaders in the Incursion community have given their honest feedback. You'd do well to get their feedback directly.
Herr Ronin (#26)
nomatech (#43)
Keith Planck (#63)
Serge SC (old #12)
Serge SC (old #60)

EI7FPB 3 wrote:

Incursion should NOT be, join a fleet for a few days, earn 2 -3 billions, then go back to PVPing or what ever. It should be a career.

A bad ending to an otherwise good post. I strongly disagree. Incursions are the bridge from PvE to PvP. Incursions are the way for a player to transition from a high sec missioner to a valuable member of a null sec corp. Incursions can motivate a player to train leadership skills to learn how to FC. Becoming an FC involves focus, social skills, multitasking, and possibly personal growth - something that can only be good for the EVE playerbase.

Incursions are inclusive. The lure of the high payout of the Elite Vanguard fleets drew solo players into the EVE community. The lure of high sec Incursions brought null sec players' alts to fleet up with their main character's enemies. Incursions are the way I fund my null sec covert ops roams, especially as I only get to play about a dozen hours a week (not 12 hrs/day). EVE is rich in Things To Do. No player *has* to do only one thing. I can have research agents all over the universe, mine for minerals to assemble items from blueprints, do missions for standings, roam null sec in a fleet, or fine tune my skills with the best group of pilots I can find in Incursions. I play EVE because I'm not limited to a "class" of doing one thing well and everything else poorly. I run Incursions because I enjoy the community and the challenge of optimal performance with different players.

CCP has about a week from this post to correct the imbalance in Incursions. Final exams are starting in most universities, and the readjustment needs to be in place when the students come back to EVE. HardinSalvor is a great example of the young blood EVE needs to attract and keep interested. He created the Incursion Guide that was the basis for Incursion running. EVE needs more young players - to create the fan sites that CCP wants and values, and to grow the playerbase.

CCP has tried to focus on bringing more players into New Eden; now more than ever with the impending release of DUST. Don't drive away players by killing what was one of the most interesting components of EVE: Incursions.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#137 - 2012-05-06 22:36:19 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Why not get with the people who pledged loyalty to Sansha in the Live Events (such as myself) and let us participate and get blown up by some incursion people. I am sure that some adding some humans would make things much more interesting, and I don't mind dying, after all There is no death in Nation.

Basically, CCP can get free labour out of us in the form of acting. I mean, free is good right CCP?

Aside from getting nuked suiciding into a goonswarm fleet to stop them from hindering the masters plans.... I have no exp running incursions due to my toons RP stance.


This is the real tragedy of Incursions. When Incursions was first announced it sounded as though it was going to be great RP content and meaningful events tied to the story of EVE, instead it was stale lame PvE Raids sucked right out of EQ/WoW type games.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#138 - 2012-05-06 22:38:50 UTC
Andochas wrote:
Andochas wrote:
The Quick Answer:

Remove the 10% payout reduction in Vanguards. Also, as suggested:
Keith Planck (#63)
Herr Ronin (#83)
OTA Suggestion: Bring the Hacking array forward so it is 50km away, This enables a logi to fit a hacker and still maintain cap chain and rep's.

t8xxic Thiesant (#38)
Excellent suggestions, though I prefer the OTA solution above.


The Quick Explanation:

The increased completion requirements from the Escalation patch are enough to drastically reduce the average payout of Incursions. However, the high potential payout (though cut from before) of Elite Vanguard Fleets needs to stay high, as the lure for lone PvE players to join the greater EVE community.

As the whiners' heads explode from this comment, think on this: Do you nerf all market transactions because the Goon's master trader controls billions of ISK in goods and they can profit immensely from market swings of their own making? Max skilled characters working in a coordinated effort will always be able to vastly outperform a solo player. Just as the max skilled, incredibly expensive (30B ISK), shiny Elite Vanguard fleets should be able to achieve an ISK/hr target that will send Tipia on another rant.

This would be an acceptable argument, if it wasn't over an activity taking part in high sec. An area of the game designed for newbies and policed by anti-sandbox guards.

Whilst I am not against concord, they are a necessary evil for making the game playable for Eve's genuine new players, when you put 30 billion into a fleet of 10 ships you can no longer sensibly claim to be a newbie. As such there should not be activities that scale to your input in the starter systems.

And for what its worth, 30 billion isn't a lot of ISK spread over ten players.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#139 - 2012-05-06 22:57:21 UTC
Lets lay out some actual facts:

Fact One: All these pro Incursions posts asking for a reverse of the very modest nerf are about ISK. They are not about community or access to PvE content, as those elements of Incursions are still there if players want them.

Fact Two: High reward PvE in High Sec undervalues PvE in Low sec, Null sec, and Worm Hole space. There's no point in taking risks doing PvE in dangerous space if you can make even remotely the same amount in safer space. This is simple game balance.

Solution: Buff Low and Null Sec Incursion rewards. Remove Incursions from High Security space, this can be done by simply removing them altogether or by removing CONCORD from Incursion systems in High Sec. Likewise nerf level 4 combat missions in High Sec. This will make Incursions in Low and Null worth doing, and maintain risk vs reward balance in EVE.
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#140 - 2012-05-06 23:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Korgan Nailo
Simi Kusoni wrote:

This would be an acceptable argument, if it wasn't over an activity taking part in high sec. An area of the game designed for newbies and policed by anti-sandbox guards.

Whilst I am not against concord, they are a necessary evil for making the game playable for Eve's genuine new players, when you put 30 billion into a fleet of 10 ships you can no longer sensibly claim to be a newbie. As such there should not be activities that scale to your input in the starter systems.

And for what its worth, 30 billion isn't a lot of ISK spread over ten players.

Could you tell us then, who is running incursions in Low / Null sec?

Or... the hatred for high sec incursions is just so a feature ceases to exist for those who were enjoying it?

Or... the hatred is because lots of low / null sec players actually went to high sec to run incursions?

I don't know... I can't make sense of this...

Lets drop the high / low / null sec crap and focus on what they asked us for it, Incursions feedback, shall we?

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