These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2012-06-14 18:40:42 UTC
I actually trust the GM's in this matter. Please do me a favor, help them, if need be, cut them a little slack, please grow them for me, lol. So they grow up into big strong veteran players for me to shoot at.

The GM's can tell if they're real beginners or not. I actually think it's kind of cool, they can blind side some of these bottom feeders, I think they deserve it.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#162 - 2012-06-14 18:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
3. None but new PLAYERS are protected by CCP in any way.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
5. Players cannot see which characters are new PLAYERS and which are old players with new CHARACTERS; game masters CAN see this and we act accordingly.
6. It is impossible to define what a new PLAYER is in a way that is comprehensible, to the point and without loop holes, in addition to our players able to apply these rules to their fellow players around them. This means that we will not provide a hard definition to our player base, however game masters internally can apply these rules consistently and without bias.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.


Is there anyway that you can change the Rookie System page so that the warning states that can-baiting is considered griefing in these systems, not can-flipping, as you have mentioned in both related threads? As it stands, the wiki page is in direct conflict with your statements. If the problem is that there is no page describing can-baiting to link to, I will be more than happy to create/write the page and fully explain all of the intricacies of it.

EDIT: I also want to thank you for having the patience to read through a second thread and putting together a full reply to this. I greatly appreciate your time and effort in clarifying things - it's been a great help.
Haulie Berry
#163 - 2012-06-14 18:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.



You just said in (2) that nobody is protected outside of rookie systems. Then you went on to say in (7), "Even though they're not protected outside of those systems, don't mess with them anywhere else, either " which, as a GM edict, could be interpreted as policy. So now you have two policy points that directly contradict each other, and (4) is the cherry on top - "or else".

You couldn't make it through a brief synopsis of your position without contradicting both yourself and policy as it is currently known. This should probably be taken as an indication that you need to rethink things.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#164 - 2012-06-14 18:44:09 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.


No, see my post above. We can define it, but you, as a player, have no way of verifying if another player fits the criteria.


Oh, so you are saying we players are stupid. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2012-06-14 18:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Greg Valanti
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Greg Valanti, there are all kinds of opportunities for new players to do combat and Piracy. Join factional warfare for the fights. Heck if you do well enough on the beginner missions, you do actually get an invite to move to pirate factional systems. In the world of eve, you have to work at being good at something. Nothing comes easy. I've actually spent a fair amount of time doing what I'm beginning to call old school piracy. I actually did really well ISK wise, had a guy in a freighter eject from his ship when he thought he was going to die. We actually got the ship, and every single thing that was in it. Still have the freighter to this day.
I did all my piracy in low sec. Home of the pirates. Head out there, make a few friends, you'll be camping gates before you know it.


I moved on to other things months ago. Any recent activity of mine in Clellinon was war dec related. Chloe was only recruited to corp after the incident in question. So while I know about pvp opportunities and game mechanics, the rookies in these systems do not - and yet they are still being warned/banned over fighting other rookies (or even players more veteran than themselves!).

A big part of the problem is that the warnings for hostile aggression are inadequate. New players will click "OK" 9/10 times without reading the warning, then cry about their death when simply reading the pop up would have spared them. This creates a problem where now newbies have no exposure to or understanding of these aggression mechanics before venturing out of their rookie systems. Something for the NPE team to consider I suppose.
Dakeen Kurvora
Doomheim
#166 - 2012-06-14 18:48:05 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.


No, see my post above. We can define it, but you, as a player, have no way of verifying if another player fits the criteria.


Oh, so you are saying we players are stupid. Thanks for the vote of confidence.


Pretty sure he means we can't see what they see.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#167 - 2012-06-14 18:48:42 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
There are many many situations where a "new player", either a legitimate new player or a veteran with an axe to grind and a trial account, can exploit the system resulting in others becoming banned.

Off of the top of my head:
- Using a 1 day player/alt in a frigate to fight wartargets in a rookie zone
- Hauling overly expensive gear in a small frigate or industrial

Also you have situations where rookies who do not know what they are doing end up doing things like can flipping other rookies resulting in hilarious consequences and liberal use of the banhammer.

It's better to have people learn lessons the hard way than to coddle them through the game, because they will end up being griefed at one point or another. And if you're going to have player immunity, make it so that the rookies can't do any harm either, because you should know that eve players will take every advantage they can get to **** people off.


If a "rookie" like that can take these actions he is obviously not a rookie and is thus not protected. Common sense; apply it.


It's not out of line for a rookie to join a corporation that is wardecced or to haul something between stations for money. There are many other situations where a new player could legitimately enter a scenario where they could blow up or blow someone else up due to the hands of another player in EvE Online, a spaceship game designed around blowing other spaceships.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#168 - 2012-06-14 18:50:34 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.



You just said in (2) that nobody is protected outside of rookie systems. Then you went on to say in (7), "Even though they're not protected outside of those systems, don't mess with them anywhere else, either " which, as a GM edict, could be interpreted as policy. So now you have two policy points that directly contradict each other, and (4) is the cherry on top - "or else".

You couldn't make it through a brief synopsis of your position without contradicting both yourself and policy as it is currently known. This should probably be taken as an indication that you need to rethink things.


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#169 - 2012-06-14 18:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.


No, see my post above. We can define it, but you, as a player, have no way of verifying if another player fits the criteria.


I'm fine lumping (as far as other players are concerned) new alts in with new players, I'm just concerned about where (roughly) the line is drawn on age.

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"

I understand that you can't be precise with publicly available information, and that's fine.

We would just like to have some sensitive* but not particularly specific* public test, while you have your second, sensitive and specific, GM test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity

Basically, we don't want to accidentally shoot newbies while pursuing legitimate targets who are cowardly enough to hide in the muddled waters of newbie systems.

*To paraphrase the wiki, a Sensitive test finds all newbies, a specific test excludes all non-newbies. A sensitive and moderately specific test finds all newbies but has some false positive results for non-newbies. A sensitive and highly specific test finds all newbies and has very few false positives (the test the GMs have currently).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#170 - 2012-06-14 18:52:12 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
There are many many situations where a "new player", either a legitimate new player or a veteran with an axe to grind and a trial account, can exploit the system resulting in others becoming banned.

Off of the top of my head:
- Using a 1 day player/alt in a frigate to fight wartargets in a rookie zone
- Hauling overly expensive gear in a small frigate or industrial

Also you have situations where rookies who do not know what they are doing end up doing things like can flipping other rookies resulting in hilarious consequences and liberal use of the banhammer.

It's better to have people learn lessons the hard way than to coddle them through the game, because they will end up being griefed at one point or another. And if you're going to have player immunity, make it so that the rookies can't do any harm either, because you should know that eve players will take every advantage they can get to **** people off.


If a "rookie" like that can take these actions he is obviously not a rookie and is thus not protected. Common sense; apply it.


It's not out of line for a rookie to join a corporation that is wardecced or to haul something between stations for money. There are many other situations where a new player could legitimately enter a scenario where they could blow up or blow someone else up due to the hands of another player in EvE Online, a spaceship game designed around blowing other spaceships.


And this is why we will not define what a rookie is. Once again, common sense; a rookie involves himself in a war, perhaps not so rookie anymore. Now, stop coming up with hypothetical situations and apply some common sense.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#171 - 2012-06-14 18:53:37 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"


Dear lord... Hulks are advanced T2 ships. I am not going to dignify this with a real answer.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#172 - 2012-06-14 18:54:39 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"


Dear lord... Hulks are advanced T2 ships. I am not going to dignify this with a real answer.


I literally lol'd at this.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#173 - 2012-06-14 18:56:08 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"


Dear lord... Hulks are advanced T2 ships. I am not going to dignify this with a real answer.


That is your job though, to answer questions. By your own words you refuse to define what constitutes a new player, so we as players cannot second guess what you define is a new player - even if said player is in a Hulk.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-06-14 18:57:01 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.


Hey Homonoia, may I ask.

Seeing as a stated goal of CCP is to improve the new player experience, as well as protecting new players so that they can get used to game mechanics, would it be possible to actually propose a timer system that takes into account a new players actions, as to avoid the whole system wide coverage thing and the "who is a new player" issue?

I just worry about other systems falling under this guideline because many players aren't aware of the rule, or simply don't care. I would think it would also alleviate some petitions and need for the GM's to have to check if the person aggressed was a new player as well, as well as the alt account of a veteran player thing.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#175 - 2012-06-14 18:57:17 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"


Dear lord... Hulks are advanced T2 ships. I am not going to dignify this with a real answer.


Luckily, it's not a real question. It's the on point example of the Sorites Paradox.*

That paradox is the whole issue being discussed in the thread.

*AKA the Heap Problem

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Haulie Berry
#176 - 2012-06-14 18:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
GM Homonoia wrote:


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.




So, basically, while you don't want us to mess with rookie players, we're free to go ahead and mess with them anyway (free from consequence to ourselves) while simultaneously griefing the Eve community as a whole by encouraging you to **** up the game with the arbitrary expansion of non-sandbox zones.... as long as we do it outside of the rookie systems.

If you don't want people to mess with rookies, that's possibly the most ill-considered response you could have furnished. Lol
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#177 - 2012-06-14 19:00:31 UTC
Here is a simple solution. A totally new player, new account and all. Will have a title before their name. "Rookie" CCP can easily script this into the game and when the "Rookie" is no longer a "Rookie" based on meeting whatever criteria CCP sets for someone being a rookie...then the Rookie title is removed.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#178 - 2012-06-14 19:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: THE L0CK
Ginseng Jita wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Since nothing of much economic value happens in rookie systems, the only thing this really applies to is something like "are Hulks in rookie systems 'rookies'?"


Dear lord... Hulks are advanced T2 ships. I am not going to dignify this with a real answer.


That is your job though, to answer questions. By your own words you refuse to define what constitutes a new player, so we as players cannot second guess what you define is a new player - even if said player is in a Hulk.



In response to another statement of yours, no, not stupid, is purposefully obtuse and painfully transparent about it.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#179 - 2012-06-14 19:01:50 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Here is a simple solution. A totally new player, new account and all. Will have a title before their name. "Rookie" CCP can easily script this into the game and when the "Rookie" is no longer a "Rookie" based on meeting whatever criteria CCP sets for someone being a rookie...then the Rookie title is removed.


That would work. Stealth Nerf to begging scams, but I'm ok with that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#180 - 2012-06-14 19:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginseng Jita
RubyPorto wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Here is a simple solution. A totally new player, new account and all. Will have a title before their name. "Rookie" CCP can easily script this into the game and when the "Rookie" is no longer a "Rookie" based on meeting whatever criteria CCP sets for someone being a rookie...then the Rookie title is removed.


That would work. Stealth Nerf to begging scams, but I'm ok with that.


It would work. People with older accounts that create an alt on an existing account would not be flagged as rookies. Doesn't mean someone can't create a trial account or a whole new account and use it to grief - but at least it makes it easier to "know" who is thought of as a rookie and we'd be less likely as players to make a mistake.