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CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

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Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2012-06-14 18:24:35 UTC
Natsett Amuinn, ya know I'm not going to imply that CCP needs to code anything. With the up coming Dust release, and just gobbs of other issues, I actually think there plate is pretty full. Especially when a little simple real life etiquette would do just fine in this situation.

OK Just a simple question. Who in here thinks a 2 week old player hauling 25 Billion isk worth of anything in a T1 industrial would be a rookie? Could I see hands please.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#142 - 2012-06-14 18:25:24 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
None of this would be an issue if people weren't pathetic enough to go shoot at rookies in the first place.
…except that you have to be able to do so, otherwise it would create such a ridiculously huge and abusable loophole to hide stuff behind.


Please explain, in detail, how you believe this is the case.


You can fit a lot of Avatar BPOs in an Ibis. If you can't shoot rookies (based on either Character or Account age), no hauler would need Orca alts for high value cargo, they'd just use young accounts/toons.

So the question remains. Of the population that inhabits rookie systems, what separates "Rookie" form "not-Rookie."

Is someone mining in a Hulk a Rookie? A Retriever?

It's like the heap of sand problem. We are clear that a grain of sand is not a heap, and a billion grains is a heap, we're clear that 2 grains is still not a heap and a billion minus one is still a heap. At some point, there is a grain of sand which makes the sand a heap; figuring out which grain is very hard though.



Many of us have really gone over the rookie hauling tons of goods scenario. Now I'll attempt to ask the question that got erased earlier. The main situation that brought up this thread and its twin yesterday was about a guy going into a rookies epic arc mission that was in a system that was not designated starter.
So I ask, why does a person have to scan down a rookies mission, fly into it, steal from his can, and pop him? Is he carrying Avatar BPO's in his hold as well?

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#143 - 2012-06-14 18:25:29 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
....
Tippia, just think about what your saying there would ya. I can figure out he's not a rookie, CCP I'm certain can figure this out. What about you.

I wouldn't be so sure.

As it stands you get a warning when shooting someone who is older than you, in a better and more skill intensive ship than you, in a rookie system if the older character is considered a rookie (meaning the one doing the shooting woudl be a rookie too). And in Arnon, a "rookie" can grab from PvPers cans all they want and if they get shot, they can just get someone banned. Its the ultimate griefing, and CCP encourages it.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#144 - 2012-06-14 18:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: THE L0CK
Corina Jarr wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
....
Tippia, just think about what your saying there would ya. I can figure out he's not a rookie, CCP I'm certain can figure this out. What about you.

I wouldn't be so sure.

As it stands you get a warning when shooting someone who is older than you, in a better and more skill intensive ship than you, in a rookie system if the older character is considered a rookie (meaning the one doing the shooting woudl be a rookie too). And in Arnon, a "rookie" can grab from PvPers cans all they want and if they get shot, they can just get someone banned. Its the ultimate griefing, and CCP encourages it.



Why do people feel the need to pvp in a starter system?

Edit: I should clarify to Can PVP, wardecs excluded.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#145 - 2012-06-14 18:29:30 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
Come on, people, just apply common sense. Do you really have to rely on trying to grief (or gank or whatever) players in those few 1.0 systems that are designated as newbie starting areas?
And again: that is not the problem. The problem is that the rules for those systems are seeping out into completely different ones, potentially opening up huge and easily exploitable holes in the entire industry-PvP sector.

Quote:
Also, why should someone carry PLEX around a newbie system? Wait till he leaves it, shoot him down.
Again, the problem is that as the rules are going to apply outside the system, I won't be allowed to.

Quote:
Just think back of your first few days in Eve. Where did you hang out, what did you do?
Jita. Laughing at the scams. Dodging the ganks and smartbombs.

Mrr Woodcock wrote:
OK Just a simple question. Who in here thinks a 2 week old player hauling 25 Billion isk worth of anything in a T1 industrial would be a rookie? Could I see hands please.
…missing the point that he very well could be, and that there is no way of knowing before the GMs take you by the ear. In fact, just the fact that he's doing it in a T1 indy rather seems to suggest that he is indeed a rookie, because that's a classic rookie mistake.
Dakeen Kurvora
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-06-14 18:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dakeen Kurvora
I just remember a GM saying "Don't mess with rookies" nothing specific about systems. Although I was aware of the "Rookie System" rule as well. So what

If it is only in "Rookie Systems" why worry about who is a rookie or not in those specific systems? Almost all situations can be resolved outside said systems. One jump out. The guy carrying 25b worth of stuff isn't just orbiting the station is he? He is either going somewhere or came from somewhere right? So follow him out. If he is headed to the station there than well that in unfortunately a lost opportunity. Question is, was I their waiting at a gate for someone to come along inside that Rookie System? My fault for not being on the other side of the gate.

If it extends into other systems, again think first guys. Generally if you have to it would be a bad idea.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#147 - 2012-06-14 18:30:14 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


CCP needs to code in a new account timer that prevents hostile action for a set amount of time. Only the new account can remove that timer with their own actions. They shouldn't be protected in one system, they should be protected in hi sec over a specific threshold for duration of time. Not every rookie is going to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks in a rookie system.


Cool, perfect safety for my High Value-Low volume hauls of Officer Gear, Titan and T2 BPOs.

It's not though.

Even an act like storing X amount of isk worth of goods in an ibus can remove a timer.


How much is a T2 BPO worth? There's no open market for them for CCP to pull fair market value.

What's to stop people from tricking newbies from removing their timers?


The point is that We're fine with protecting rookies in rookie systems. Maybe even give them a message that they receive special protection in those systems.

The issue is asking what a rookie is, given that non-rookies live in rookie systems.

Giving rookies unlimited safety for x time not only is easily abusable, but would lead to a fair shock when their timer runs out and the stupid that they've been getting away with starts biting them.

EvE does not need FFA safe zones, and it doesn't need (for reasons of abusability/culture shock) traveling protections for rookies. So defining what is a rookie in the rookie systems is important.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#148 - 2012-06-14 18:30:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
I'm still not understanding any kind of issue with the simple rule of don't mess with rookies?

You scan down a potential gank victim in high sec, check him out and he is a under a month old. Move on!

You find a procurer mining in high sec belt while your out ganking miners, check him. Under a month? Move on!
You find a Badger I carrying 25 billion in technetium coming out of gate cloak on a the EC-P8R gate in Torrinos, check him. Under a month. Move on…?


Well of course. He is a rookie. P
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2012-06-14 18:30:50 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
....
Tippia, just think about what your saying there would ya. I can figure out he's not a rookie, CCP I'm certain can figure this out. What about you.

I wouldn't be so sure.

As it stands you get a warning when shooting someone who is older than you, in a better and more skill intensive ship than you, in a rookie system if the older character is considered a rookie (meaning the one doing the shooting woudl be a rookie too). And in Arnon, a "rookie" can grab from PvPers cans all they want and if they get shot, they can just get someone banned. Its the ultimate griefing, and CCP encourages it.


Let's just say I'm feeling pretty sure they would
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#150 - 2012-06-14 18:32:36 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
None of this would be an issue if people weren't pathetic enough to go shoot at rookies in the first place.
…except that you have to be able to do so, otherwise it would create such a ridiculously huge and abusable loophole to hide stuff behind.


Please explain, in detail, how you believe this is the case.


You can fit a lot of Avatar BPOs in an Ibis. If you can't shoot rookies (based on either Character or Account age), no hauler would need Orca alts for high value cargo, they'd just use young accounts/toons.

So the question remains. Of the population that inhabits rookie systems, what separates "Rookie" form "not-Rookie."

Is someone mining in a Hulk a Rookie? A Retriever?

It's like the heap of sand problem. We are clear that a grain of sand is not a heap, and a billion grains is a heap, we're clear that 2 grains is still not a heap and a billion minus one is still a heap. At some point, there is a grain of sand which makes the sand a heap; figuring out which grain is very hard though.



Many of us have really gone over the rookie hauling tons of goods scenario. Now I'll attempt to ask the question that got erased earlier. The main situation that brought up this thread and its twin yesterday was about a guy going into a rookies epic arc mission that was in a system that was not designated starter.
So I ask, why does a person have to scan down a rookies mission, fly into it, steal from his can, and pop him? Is he carrying Avatar BPO's in his hold as well?


Not a rookie system. He's stepped into his big boy pants by leaving the rookie system whether he knows it or not. I would not be averse to a warning upon first leaving the rookie systems, or a mission that explains the basics of HS aggro mechanics (in fact this would be an awesome addition to the NPE).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#151 - 2012-06-14 18:34:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Please explain, in detail, how you believe this is the case.
If it is made absolutely and in every way illegal to attack rookies, then anyone with any kinds of brains will keep creating rookies for any form of risky hauling, travel, and/or spying.

Even if (in fact, especially if) there are non-public GM-discretion rules that someone who's using his umpty-eleventh recycled alt to do this will not be considered a rookie and is free to attack, there is no way for the rest of us to determine this and figure out that, yes, we can indeed attack this apparent rookie without censure, because he is in fact not a rookie at all. Even tying it to the account age and providing a public “newbie” flag on characters on that account will not stop this — people will use trials and buddy accounts to create the same protection against their characters. The outside capriciousness of the GMs' decisions makes it suicidal to try to stop even a blatantly obvious non-rookie because there is no way of knowing whether they will think it's as obvious as you do (and the obviousness might turn out to be wrong).

Suddenly, we have an entire class of characters that can do immense damage to people around them, but which cannot be retaliated against or interdicted. This would be far more damaging to the game than the occasional innocent rookie getting blown up.

Ban Bindy wrote:
If a few older player's alts get protected under these new rules, what's the harm? CCP can probably tell when it's a true new account versus a newbie created on an older players account. Might lead to new rules on exploits. That's fine. Protecting rookie players is important enough that it has to happen even if it allows some older players to abuse the rookie protection.
The harm is that we can't make the distinction, so the GMs would never have the opportunity to make it — no-one will be stupid enough to attack such a character because you never know (and that's also why the moronic “try it — if you get banned it was wrong” argument presented earlier is so insanely and laughably stupid). It creates a layer of protection that these older players should never have, and it does so because it is impossible to distinguish them from actual rookies by those who really need to be able to make that distinction — the players.



The detailed explanation is much appreciated Cool

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#152 - 2012-06-14 18:36:11 UTC
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
3. None but new PLAYERS are protected by CCP in any way.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
5. Players cannot see which characters are new PLAYERS and which are old players with new CHARACTERS; game masters CAN see this and we act accordingly.
6. It is impossible to define what a new PLAYER is in a way that is comprehensible, to the point and without loop holes, in addition to our players able to apply these rules to their fellow players around them. This means that we will not provide a hard definition to our player base, however game masters internally can apply these rules consistently and without bias.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#153 - 2012-06-14 18:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Blah never mind not worth it.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#154 - 2012-06-14 18:36:26 UTC
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#155 - 2012-06-14 18:37:16 UTC
There are many many situations where a "new player", either a legitimate new player or a veteran with an axe to grind and a trial account, can exploit the system resulting in others becoming banned.

Off of the top of my head:
- Using a 1 day player/alt in a frigate to fight wartargets in a rookie zone
- Hauling overly expensive gear in a small frigate or industrial

Also you have situations where rookies who do not know what they are doing end up doing things like can flipping other rookies resulting in hilarious consequences and liberal use of the banhammer.

It's better to have people learn lessons the hard way than to coddle them through the game, because they will end up being griefed at one point or another. And if you're going to have player immunity, make it so that the rookies can't do any harm either, because you should know that eve players will take every advantage they can get to **** people off.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#156 - 2012-06-14 18:38:01 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:

Just think back of your first few days in Eve. Where did you hang out, what did you do? Just think back and don't do things you wouldn't have liked to see and you should be pretty much save.


I was out quite a ways from rookie systems, figuring out aggression mechanics through research and mistakes, joining my first Player Corp, quitting my first player corp, finding a good mining buddy, joining that player corp. I have been canflipped, I have shot back, and I have lost ships. EvE is about learning, and learning in EvE tends to cost your ship, or cost some research.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#157 - 2012-06-14 18:38:57 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.


No, see my post above. We can define it, but you, as a player, have no way of verifying if another player fits the criteria.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#158 - 2012-06-14 18:39:13 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
CCP needs to be upfront and define what a *rookie* is. Simple.



/facepalm

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-06-14 18:40:02 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


CCP needs to code in a new account timer that prevents hostile action for a set amount of time. Only the new account can remove that timer with their own actions. They shouldn't be protected in one system, they should be protected in hi sec over a specific threshold for duration of time. Not every rookie is going to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks in a rookie system.


Cool, perfect safety for my High Value-Low volume hauls of Officer Gear, Titan and T2 BPOs.

It's not though.

Even an act like storing X amount of isk worth of goods in an ibus can remove a timer.


How much is a T2 BPO worth? There's no open market for them for CCP to pull fair market value.

What's to stop people from tricking newbies from removing their timers?


The point is that We're fine with protecting rookies in rookie systems. Maybe even give them a message that they receive special protection in those systems.

The issue is asking what a rookie is, given that non-rookies live in rookie systems.

Giving rookies unlimited safety for x time not only is easily abusable, but would lead to a fair shock when their timer runs out and the stupid that they've been getting away with starts biting them.

EvE does not need FFA safe zones, and it doesn't need (for reasons of abusability/culture shock) traveling protections for rookies. So defining what is a rookie in the rookie systems is important.

Well at some point even a rookie has to be held accountable for thier own actions, but again a message that pops up telling a new player that the fair market value of the items in their hold will make them vulnerable to agression by other players.

Like Tipia keeps pointing out, it's been threatened by a gm that this rule can be extended to almost a dozen other systems; all because their goal is "protect rookies long enough to get them familliar with game mechanics". Safe systems aren't the answer to that.

Everyone is just focused on how people can get around it, and how do you tell who a rookie is, to the point that the GM's are saying, just don't do those things in there systems. That's not good enough; there needs to be a proper solution that accounts for new accounts, and puts emphasis on actions have reprocusion.

Every check available is already in the game. If CCP can take the time to overhaul war decking, mining barges, create new ships, and if their stated goal is to improve the new player experience, then this should be something they should look at.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#160 - 2012-06-14 18:40:08 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
There are many many situations where a "new player", either a legitimate new player or a veteran with an axe to grind and a trial account, can exploit the system resulting in others becoming banned.

Off of the top of my head:
- Using a 1 day player/alt in a frigate to fight wartargets in a rookie zone
- Hauling overly expensive gear in a small frigate or industrial

Also you have situations where rookies who do not know what they are doing end up doing things like can flipping other rookies resulting in hilarious consequences and liberal use of the banhammer.

It's better to have people learn lessons the hard way than to coddle them through the game, because they will end up being griefed at one point or another. And if you're going to have player immunity, make it so that the rookies can't do any harm either, because you should know that eve players will take every advantage they can get to **** people off.


If a "rookie" like that can take these actions he is obviously not a rookie and is thus not protected. Common sense; apply it.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master