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CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

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Haulie Berry
#121 - 2012-06-14 17:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Chandaris wrote:
Stay out of the rookie systems, and if you have to go to them don't go there with the intention of greifing / killing / stealing from the noobs..

It's not that hard, and if you're looking for cut and dry rules you won't get them. The Gm's likely use a heavy amount of judgement as not two situations in eve are the same.

If you wanna grief people, don't do it in the newb systems.. it is that simple.. you're over thinking it.


Bravo on responding to a point that's not even under contention.

It's not that simple, because they've threatened to arbitrarily redefine other systems as "rookie" systems.

So now the rule is, apparently, "Don't gank rookies in rookie systems and, also, don't gank them in other systems or we'll turn them into rookie systems, too," which is a pretty obvious and grossly egregious bit of policy creep.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#122 - 2012-06-14 17:52:50 UTC
Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
I'm still not understanding any kind of issue with the simple rule of don't mess with rookies?

You scan down a potential gank victim in high sec, check him out and he is a under a month old. Move on!

You find a procurer mining in high sec belt while your out ganking miners, check him. Under a month? Move on!
You find a Badger I carrying 25 billion in technetium coming out of gate cloak on a the EC-P8R gate in Torrinos, check him. Under a month. Move on…?
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2012-06-14 17:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
The point here is so very simple. #1 use your brains, don't kill beginner players. If you can't figure out who they are, who's the weak link here hmm.

Sunshine and Lollipops what do you think???
Haulie Berry
#124 - 2012-06-14 17:56:40 UTC
Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
I'm still not understanding any kind of issue with the simple rule of don't mess with rookies?




Yes, you clearly don't understand, because that's really not the rule. The rule as we know it is don't mess with rookies in rookie systems.

Quote:
You scan down a potential gank victim in high sec, check him out and he is a under a month old. Move on!



You find a procurer mining in high sec belt while your out ganking miners, check him. Under a month? Move on!

Rookie grabs your bait can? Let him leave!

What is wrong with any of that? Afraid it might be an alt gaining Intel on you.... in high sec? Seriously?


Well for starters, in none of those situations is the "rookie" protected by policy, unless the occurrence is within a very specific handful of systems.

Quote:
A rookie comes into your low sec/null system and hangs around longer than he should? Blast him. You might -maybe- get a warning sure,



...what? Are you high?

You seem to have absolutely zero grasp of even the vaguest definition of the rules as they exist.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-06-14 17:57:58 UTC
Chloe Dacella wrote:
I've been playing for under a month. I recently got into a fight in a belt in a rookie system with someone who had been playing for a week or two longer than I had. They were in a T1 cruiser and I was in a T1 frig. I won and got a "don't **** with the rookies" message.

Now I'm not saying that I think that it's okay for anyone and everyone to **** with rookies but I think that if someone has been playing for longer than you have and has a more powerful ship than you have, then they should be fair game. The rules as they stand make it very difficult for very new players to get into PvP and piracy.



since everyone seems to be ignoring the reason this thread was bumped in the first place.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-06-14 17:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
I'm still not understanding any kind of issue with the simple rule of don't mess with rookies?

You scan down a potential gank victim in high sec, check him out and he is a under a month old. Move on!

You find a procurer mining in high sec belt while your out ganking miners, check him. Under a month? Move on!

Rookie grabs your bait can? Let him leave!

What is wrong with any of that? Afraid it might be an alt gaining Intel on you.... in high sec? Seriously?

A rookie comes into your low sec/null system and hangs around longer than he should? Blast him. You might -maybe- get a warning sure, then just kindly explain to the GM that he overstayed his welcome, or you warned him. Especially true if they happen to be attempting to follow you or just floating around outside a gate or station, for an extended period --read: like 10+ minutes--

Probably don't have to worry much about rookies in Null. I've seen many of Rookie ships left behind by the NPC gate guards.

Use your brain that's all the rule asks for, if your brain fails you then take the slap on the wrist and move on. Thanks to kill reports there is a clear difference between an "oops" every once in a great while and a supposed "oops" 4 times in the same day.

To add in about flagging Rookies in any form: Flagging Rookies only makes it easier to spot them for people who want to attack them. Yes this does make it easier to spot who is griefing them, but those that want to still will, and be more ruthless about it knowing they will be banned. Making them immune to aggression opens a windows for exploitation, the phrase "Your an idiot if you don't transport stuff using a rookie alt" would become extremely popular overnight. It happens in other games with similar mechanics.

Because an alt on a 6 year old account isn't a rookie.

Becaue not every rookie needs a month to get used to the game.

Because some new players actually do jump into PvP and bating shortly after joining EVE.

And "don't mess with rookies" doesn't account for any of that.

You need a new account timer, not a broadbased rule that isn't coded.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2012-06-14 17:59:16 UTC
Tippia, could you please explain to me when a rookie would be hauling 25 Billion of anything Hmm. Don't you think that would make him kinda not a rookie????
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#128 - 2012-06-14 18:00:21 UTC
Dakeen.. Protection only applies in the rookie +9 and +1.0 systems afaik..

If a rookie wanders into lowsec, he is fair game.. There is a big friendly warning to that effect that he gets.. Inability to read ain't my problem.
Dakeen Kurvora
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-06-14 18:01:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
I'm still not understanding any kind of issue with the simple rule of don't mess with rookies?

You scan down a potential gank victim in high sec, check him out and he is a under a month old. Move on!

You find a procurer mining in high sec belt while your out ganking miners, check him. Under a month? Move on!
You find a Badger I carrying 25 billion in technetium coming out of gate cloak on a the EC-P8R gate in Torrinos, check him. Under a month. Move on…?


Unfortunately you seemed to have missed the part about using your brain. Obviously that is no rookie sir. Fire away. Like I said if your brain fails you then take the slap on the wrist. It's --extremely-- unlikely that a GM will do anything in that situation.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2012-06-14 18:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Tippia, could you please explain to me when a rookie would be hauling 25 Billion of anything Hmm. Don't you think that would make him kinda not a rookie????
That's just it: we don't know. We are not allowed to know.
An actual rookie can most certainly be carrying 25 billion worth of anything, so why shouldn't I be able to interdict that and roll around in the cash just because he's new?

Dakeen Kurvora wrote:
Unfortunately you seemed to have missed the part about using your brain. Obviously that is no rookie sir.
Says you. How do I know that? What happens when it turns out that, indeed, he was a rookie — first account ever and enlisted as a hauler by people who wanted to move the stuff under protection of the “don't shoot rookies” law, and now the GMs (who didn't agree with you because they could check it out and see that he was a legitimate rookie — after all, he had no idea how much the stuff was worth and he was paid a whopping 500k for the job so he happily agreed) nuked my account.

This is why I'm saying what I'm saying: we must be able to shoot rookies, because my obvious is not your obvious is not the GMs obvious, and testing by shooting and seeing if it results in a ban is not a workable solution, and because if we can't, people will exploit the **** out of this exemption to combat.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-06-14 18:03:45 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
Dakeen.. Protection only applies in the rookie +9 and +1.0 systems afaik..

If a rookie wanders into lowsec, he is fair game.. There is a big friendly warning to that effect that he gets.. Inability to read ain't my problem.


They also get a big friendly warning before taking from someone else's wreck or can, but that has yet to prevent anything.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-06-14 18:03:52 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Tippia, could you please explain to me when a rookie would be hauling 25 Billion of anything Hmm. Don't you think that would make him kinda not a rookie????


You missed the point.

Some people have alts, those alts aren't "rookies" even if they're a day old. Someone can have an alt, under a month old, that they made to haul some stuff for their main living in a rookie system. Why is that guy off limits because they not over X amount of days old, even though they just came from a .6 system and hauling lots of valuable goods for a 6 year old main?




Stupid forum 404!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#133 - 2012-06-14 18:05:33 UTC
Interestingly before I started playing EVE I had read the forums for a few months along with the entire wiki and a few fan sites.
I probably knew more about EVE than some 1 years olds do now.

The problem: with the way rules are now, a rookie could grief the PvPers in Arnon (grief as in the bannable offence) by continually taking their cans and they can't do anything about it.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#134 - 2012-06-14 18:10:30 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Tippia, could you please explain to me when a rookie would be hauling 25 Billion of anything Hmm. Don't you think that would make him kinda not a rookie????


You missed the point.

Some people have alts, those alts aren't "rookies" even if they're a day old. Someone can have an alt, under a month old, that they made to haul some stuff for their main living in a rookie system. Why is that guy off limits because they not over X amount of days old, even though they just came from a .6 system and hauling lots of valuable goods for a 6 year old main?




Stupid forum 404!



I think that is the point that both sides are trying to make but they are looking at it from different angles and neither wants to be wrong on the internet forum.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-06-14 18:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
Greg Valanti, there are all kinds of opportunities for new players to do combat and Piracy. Join factional warfare for the fights. Heck if you do well enough on the beginner missions, you do actually get an invite to move to pirate factional systems. In the world of eve, you have to work at being good at something. Nothing comes easy. I've actually spent a fair amount of time doing what I'm beginning to call old school piracy. I actually did really well ISK wise, had a guy in a freighter eject from his ship when he thought he was going to die. We actually got the ship, and every single thing that was in it. Still have the freighter to this day.
I did all my piracy in low sec. Home of the pirates. Head out there, make a few friends, you'll be camping gates before you know it.

I get it, your both newer players, you wanted to play pirate, the other guy didn't. He was still a new player. Is is so damned hard to just respect that?

Tippia, just think about what your saying there would ya. I can figure out he's not a rookie, CCP I'm certain can figure this out. What about you.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-06-14 18:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
THE L0CK wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Tippia, could you please explain to me when a rookie would be hauling 25 Billion of anything Hmm. Don't you think that would make him kinda not a rookie????


You missed the point.

Some people have alts, those alts aren't "rookies" even if they're a day old. Someone can have an alt, under a month old, that they made to haul some stuff for their main living in a rookie system. Why is that guy off limits because they not over X amount of days old, even though they just came from a .6 system and hauling lots of valuable goods for a 6 year old main?




Stupid forum 404!



I think that is the point that both sides are trying to make but they are looking at it from different angles and neither wants to be wrong on the internet forum.


Yeah, I've noticed some people want to be able to shoot rookies. Doesn't make sense to me, rookies should be protected; just not this way.


I'll just keep repeating this because I honestly have nothing better to do with my life.

CCP needs to code in a new account timer that prevents hostile action for a set amount of time. Only the new account can remove that timer with their own actions. They shouldn't be protected in one system, they should be protected in hi sec over a specific threshold for duration of time. Not every rookie is going to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks in a rookie system.

This rule only creats a safe zone, helping people who stay in that zone, but doesn't actually help rookies overall.


PS: Pirating shouldn't be confined to low sec, that's not how EVE works. We need hi sec pirates as much as we need low. And we need a new account timer more then we need a "do not mess with rookies in rookie systems" rule.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#137 - 2012-06-14 18:19:16 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
None of this would be an issue if people weren't pathetic enough to go shoot at rookies in the first place.
…except that you have to be able to do so, otherwise it would create such a ridiculously huge and abusable loophole to hide stuff behind.


Please explain, in detail, how you believe this is the case.


You can fit a lot of Avatar BPOs in an Ibis. If you can't shoot rookies (based on either Character or Account age), no hauler would need Orca alts for high value cargo, they'd just use young accounts/toons.

So the question remains. Of the population that inhabits rookie systems, what separates "Rookie" form "not-Rookie."

Is someone mining in a Hulk a Rookie? A Retriever?

It's like the heap of sand problem. We are clear that a grain of sand is not a heap, and a billion grains is a heap, we're clear that 2 grains is still not a heap and a billion minus one is still a heap. At some point, there is a grain of sand which makes the sand a heap; figuring out which grain is very hard though.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#138 - 2012-06-14 18:20:37 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


CCP needs to code in a new account timer that prevents hostile action for a set amount of time. Only the new account can remove that timer with their own actions. They shouldn't be protected in one system, they should be protected in hi sec over a specific threshold for duration of time. Not every rookie is going to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks in a rookie system.


Cool, perfect safety for my High Value-Low volume hauls of Officer Gear, Titan and T2 BPOs.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-06-14 18:21:55 UTC
Come on, people, just apply common sense. Do you really have to rely on trying to grief (or gank or whatever) players in those few 1.0 systems that are designated as newbie starting areas? Don't even try to get people there; problem solved.

Also, why should someone carry PLEX around a newbie system? Wait till he leaves it, shoot him down.

Just think back of your first few days in Eve. Where did you hang out, what did you do? Just think back and don't do things you wouldn't have liked to see and you should be pretty much save.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-06-14 18:22:39 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


CCP needs to code in a new account timer that prevents hostile action for a set amount of time. Only the new account can remove that timer with their own actions. They shouldn't be protected in one system, they should be protected in hi sec over a specific threshold for duration of time. Not every rookie is going to spend their first 2 or 3 weeks in a rookie system.


Cool, perfect safety for my High Value-Low volume hauls of Officer Gear, Titan and T2 BPOs.

It's not though.

Even an act like storing X amount of isk worth of goods in an ibus can remove a timer.