These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#621 - 2012-06-23 00:41:04 UTC
The way the rules are now, it is as if the law here in the US was "Don't have sex with minors" without defining what minors were.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#622 - 2012-06-23 00:46:36 UTC
Damn Ruby, I ws following you on the everyone thing. Cry
Domono
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#623 - 2012-06-23 00:46:49 UTC
Like they said it's impossible for us to know exactly what a Rookie is, which is why they have full protection only in Rookie systems and limited protection outside. That way it protects those who have a difficult time deciding between a rookie and not.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#624 - 2012-06-23 00:57:59 UTC
Domono wrote:
Like they said it's impossible for us to know exactly what a Rookie is, which is why they have full protection only in Rookie systems and limited protection outside. That way it protects those who have a difficult time deciding between a rookie and not.


They don't. They have no protection outside rookie systems, and by failing to either define the class or ban messing with anybody, shitty protection in rookie systems.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#625 - 2012-06-23 00:58:49 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Damn Ruby, I ws following you on the everyone thing. Cry


Then you added a far reaching, badly written, and wacky new clause.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#626 - 2012-06-23 01:25:21 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
The way the rules are now, it is as if the law here in the US was "Don't have sex with minors" without defining what minors were.


So in EVE style lets take this to its EVE conclusion. If minors are defined to that extent then one second you are labeled a minor and the next second you are not labeled and then that very next second everybody pounces on you. It used to happen when people camped the rookie gates.
That is what will happen to EVE if the line is well marked. And no line in the sand can fit every case. People can play this game and still be rookies a year later if they took leave of the game after the first week only to return a year later. No line in the sand can cover every situation. I am not going to post every concievable possible situation as it is impossible to do. Nobody at CCP is going to paint themselves into a corner on this issue so you can all just accept it or not. In the end it does not even matter how you feel about it because it is not even open for debate.

Thus the current do not mess with rookies is a very good way to deal with this. It allows the GM a human to decide if the person is indeed a rookie and if they are being taken advantage of. Something no computer can do with any possible set of controls.
Further as I already explained the player that does this does it as a way of life in game. It is not a one time thing. The GM is going to get multiple complaints about the same guy griefing rookies. Banned! Just like that.

For everybody that wants to mess with rookies this was your warning from a GM. They also spelled out the systems in which rookies are protected. It makes it 100% fool proof to avoid having your account banned if you avoid those systems.
You run your own account. You the player control your own level of risk. You the player know what the risk is. Nobody else is making you pull the trigger on someone, you do so knowing full well the risk. This is not at all difficult to understand or follow.
I for one have no sympathy at all for anyones plight should they get banned. You all have been warned by the GM.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Domono
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#627 - 2012-06-23 01:26:08 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.



You just said in (2) that nobody is protected outside of rookie systems. Then you went on to say in (7), "Even though they're not protected outside of those systems, don't mess with them anywhere else, either " which, as a GM edict, could be interpreted as policy. So now you have two policy points that directly contradict each other, and (4) is the cherry on top - "or else".

You couldn't make it through a brief synopsis of your position without contradicting both yourself and policy as it is currently known. This should probably be taken as an indication that you need to rethink things.


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.


They do have some limited protection outside. Extreme cases.

I could define a Rookie as someone with no accounts over roughly a month old, who does not yet understand the mechanics of the game nor has assets worth any significant amount.

Problem with that is we can't tell how many accounts someone has, or what they know. Also I can not tell exactly what assets someone has. On the other hand I can scan or look at someone under a month and see lasers equipped to their incursus and quickly think that guy has no idea what he is doing. Or some one in badger hauling 1 billion worth of cargo yet under a week old I cant tell if someone paid him to haul it my only conclusion is he is a alt. The guys that truly are rookies your not going to have a valid reason to do much of anything to.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#628 - 2012-06-23 01:29:55 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
The way the rules are now, it is as if the law here in the US was "Don't have sex with minors" without defining what minors were.


So in EVE style lets take this to its EVE conclusion. If minors are defined to that extent then one second you are labeled a minor and the next second you are not labeled and then that very next second everybody pounces on you. It used to happen when people camped the rookie gates.
That is what will happen to EVE if the line is well marked. And no line in the sand can fit every case. People can play this game and still be rookies a year later if they took leave of the game after the first week only to return a year later. No line in the sand can cover every situation. I am not going to post every concievable possible situation as it is impossible to do. Nobody at CCP is going to paint themselves into a corner on this issue so you can all just accept it or not. In the end it does not even matter how you feel about it because it is not even open for debate.

Thus the current do not mess with rookies is a very good way to deal with this. It allows the GM a human to decide if the person is indeed a rookie and if they are being taken advantage of. Something no computer can do with any possible set of controls.
Further as I already explained the player that does this does it as a way of life in game. It is not a one time thing. The GM is going to get multiple complaints about the same guy griefing rookies. Banned! Just like that.

For everybody that wants to mess with rookies this was your warning from a GM. They also spelled out the systems in which rookies are protected. It makes it 100% fool proof to avoid having your account banned if you avoid those systems.
You run your own account. You the player control your own level of risk. You the player know what the risk is. Nobody else is making you pull the trigger on someone, you do so knowing full well the risk. This is not at all difficult to understand or follow.
I for one have no sympathy at all for anyones plight should they get banned. You all have been warned by the GM.


Just real quick, answer this. What is the goal of the rookie protection system? Is it
a) to stop rookies from having a bad experience when they're first learning
OR
b) get bad mean people banned

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#629 - 2012-06-23 01:34:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
The way the rules are now, it is as if the law here in the US was "Don't have sex with minors" without defining what minors were.


So in EVE style lets take this to its EVE conclusion. If minors are defined to that extent then one second you are labeled a minor and the next second you are not labeled and then that very next second everybody pounces on you. It used to happen when people camped the rookie gates.
That is what will happen to EVE if the line is well marked. And no line in the sand can fit every case. People can play this game and still be rookies a year later if they took leave of the game after the first week only to return a year later. No line in the sand can cover every situation. I am not going to post every concievable possible situation as it is impossible to do. Nobody at CCP is going to paint themselves into a corner on this issue so you can all just accept it or not. In the end it does not even matter how you feel about it because it is not even open for debate.

Thus the current do not mess with rookies is a very good way to deal with this. It allows the GM a human to decide if the person is indeed a rookie and if they are being taken advantage of. Something no computer can do with any possible set of controls.
Further as I already explained the player that does this does it as a way of life in game. It is not a one time thing. The GM is going to get multiple complaints about the same guy griefing rookies. Banned! Just like that.

For everybody that wants to mess with rookies this was your warning from a GM. They also spelled out the systems in which rookies are protected. It makes it 100% fool proof to avoid having your account banned if you avoid those systems.
You run your own account. You the player control your own level of risk. You the player know what the risk is. Nobody else is making you pull the trigger on someone, you do so knowing full well the risk. This is not at all difficult to understand or follow.
I for one have no sympathy at all for anyones plight should they get banned. You all have been warned by the GM.


Just real quick, answer this. What is the goal of the rookie protection system? Is it
a) to stop rookies from having a bad experience when they're first learning
OR
b) get bad mean people banned


Neither of those two cases defines what the goal of the rookie protection systems is for.
They are both far too limiting in scope to cover it all. And an obvious attempt to paint someone into a corner.
And this is not open for debate. It is a mandate. I am sorry you are having an issue with it. Get over it.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#630 - 2012-06-23 01:40:05 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Just real quick, answer this. What is the goal of the rookie protection system? Is it
a) to stop rookies from having a bad experience when they're first learning
OR
b) get bad mean people banned


Neither of those two cases defines what the goal of the rookie protection systems is for.
They are both far too limiting in scope to cover it all. And an obvious attempt to paint someone into a corner.
And this is not open for debate. It is a mandate. I am sorry you are having an issue with it. Get over it.


Ok, then write your own C.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domono
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#631 - 2012-06-23 01:41:33 UTC
Mainly to keep rookies from being griefed while learning. Though I'm sure they have no issue with removing people who simply want to grief rookies at the same time. Less problems in the end.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#632 - 2012-06-23 01:45:37 UTC
Domono wrote:
Mainly to keep rookies from being griefed while learning. Though I'm sure they have no issue with removing people who simply want to grief rookies at the same time. Less problems in the end.


Cool, so you want rookies to not get griefed in the first place. Now, given that, is it a good idea to make the rules surrounding rookies clear or fuzzy? Remember, prevention rather than punishment is your primary goal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domono
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#633 - 2012-06-23 01:54:34 UTC
I think it's doing its job well Ruby, since a lot of people in here can't judge within reason what a rookie is or define what it is to mess with one. Meaning more people are less likely to do anything that they have to "bet your account on". The unknown can be scarier than what is in front of your face.
Herr Hammer Draken
#634 - 2012-06-23 02:06:42 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Just real quick, answer this. What is the goal of the rookie protection system? Is it
a) to stop rookies from having a bad experience when they're first learning
OR
b) get bad mean people banned


Neither of those two cases defines what the goal of the rookie protection systems is for.
They are both far too limiting in scope to cover it all. And an obvious attempt to paint someone into a corner.
And this is not open for debate. It is a mandate. I am sorry you are having an issue with it. Get over it.


Ok, then write your own C.


CCP has exit data from the last 9 years of game play. Every player that quits is invited to explain why they quit.
If you want more players or less players is not your choice to make. You do not own the game.
CCP runs this game and they alone determine what their population goals are for the game.
CCP decides what C is not me and not you. And they do not owe you an explanation of C either.
What they need for a profit vs what the players want vs what really happens in game is all considered by CCP.
They have a huge data base of petitions over the last 9 years to work with.
The rules they set are determined by their data which none of us have.
It would be extremely idiotic for us to tell them how to run their game under these conditions.
You can suggest away which you have done. But in the end they decide.
And decide they did and they posted the mandate.
The time for debate has come and gone a long time ago.
And still you refuse to accept this.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#635 - 2012-06-23 02:08:04 UTC
Domono wrote:
I think it's doing its job well Ruby, since a lot of people in here can't judge within reason what a rookie is or define what it is to mess with one. Meaning more people are less likely to do anything that they have to "bet your account on". The unknown can be scarier than what is in front of your face.


Yeah, making it impossible to tell what's an illegitimate target among a cloud of legitimate ones will certainly prevent accidents.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#636 - 2012-06-23 02:10:38 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Just real quick, answer this. What is the goal of the rookie protection system? Is it
a) to stop rookies from having a bad experience when they're first learning
OR
b) get bad mean people banned


Neither of those two cases defines what the goal of the rookie protection systems is for.
They are both far too limiting in scope to cover it all. And an obvious attempt to paint someone into a corner.
And this is not open for debate. It is a mandate. I am sorry you are having an issue with it. Get over it.


Ok, then write your own C.


CCP has exit data from the last 9 years of game play. Every player that quits is invited to explain why they quit.
If you want more players or less players is not your choice to make. You do not own the game.
CCP runs this game and they alone determine what their population goals are for the game.
CCP decides what C is not me and not you. And they do not owe you an explanation of C either.
What they need for a profit vs what the players want vs what really happens in game is all considered by CCP.
They have a huge data base of petitions over the last 9 years to work with.
The rules they set are determined by their data which none of us have.
It would be extremely idiotic for us to tell them how to run their game under these conditions.
You can suggest away which you have done. But in the end they decide.
And decide they did and they posted the mandate.
The time for debate has come and gone a long time ago.
And still you refuse to accept this.


You missed where they asked for suggestions to improve their policy.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#637 - 2012-06-23 02:13:40 UTC
Domono wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.



You just said in (2) that nobody is protected outside of rookie systems. Then you went on to say in (7), "Even though they're not protected outside of those systems, don't mess with them anywhere else, either " which, as a GM edict, could be interpreted as policy. So now you have two policy points that directly contradict each other, and (4) is the cherry on top - "or else".

You couldn't make it through a brief synopsis of your position without contradicting both yourself and policy as it is currently known. This should probably be taken as an indication that you need to rethink things.


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.


They do have some limited protection outside. Extreme cases.


That's not what that says. That says they might add new rookie systems if people **** on rookies enough.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domono
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2012-06-23 02:16:41 UTC
What accidents? I'm am honestly trying to help you get a grip on it but your making it difficult. Accidents are accidents deliberate is deliberate. They have the tools to distinguish the two. Chat logs, past petitions against you, kill logs.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#639 - 2012-06-23 02:20:21 UTC
Domono wrote:
What accidents? I'm am honestly trying to help you get a grip on it but your making it difficult. Accidents are accidents deliberate is deliberate. They have the tools to distinguish the two. Chat logs, past petitions against you, kill logs.


So you want an unclear rule that means that a griefer can gank rookies until at least 2 petition him vs a rule where GMs can simply ban people who get on kms in rookie systems and refund the killed person?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#640 - 2012-06-23 02:36:15 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Domono wrote:
What accidents? I'm am honestly trying to help you get a grip on it but your making it difficult. Accidents are accidents deliberate is deliberate. They have the tools to distinguish the two. Chat logs, past petitions against you, kill logs.


So you want an unclear rule that means that a griefer can gank rookies until at least 2 petition him vs a rule where GMs can simply ban people who get on kms in rookie systems and refund the killed person?


And you want a cut and dry rule now they are a rookie and now they are not. All that will do is allow players to camp that spot/point when rookies become non rookies. Does not solve a thing. CCP still gets thousands of petitions about a stupid rule that puts up a known spot where they can all be camped. It just shifts the problem to a different point in the game.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"