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ECM nerf suggestion
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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#81 - 2012-03-07 22:21:42 UTC
ECM nerfing has been around as long as ECM and CCP have no plans to do anything about it. It is overpowered when used in meta gaming but it's just another example of I-Win mentality in EVE. You can't use damps to protect your alt while he tackles you because Damps won't work at tackle range. You can use ECM to protect as many alts as you want because it's blanket treatment on your targeting but how many years later and CCP still look the other way?

Add a point to warp stab for every effective ECM cycle, that would solve the issue of meta chars ganking with I-Win ECM. Fleets could still tackle down a target that is ECM'ed but One man bands couldn't.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-03-08 06:36:02 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
[
Quote:
however, the thing you want to do is make the ecm ships that are allready first target even more easy to kill though they atm have very little defense except their ecm, which after your kind of nerf will be totally useless as a defense and then suddenly the only EWAR completely useless solo

ECM is easy to kill? That's news to me. Maybe I've just not seen enough brainless/unlucky ECM pilots. Their defence is range and to a lesser extent highslot point-defences and buffer. (And in the case of the Falcon, the cloak is a huge advantage).


i did not say ecm was easy to kill, but if the fleet can get a lock on it, it IS first target and they will APPROACH you, so range wont last long against a vaga or other ships,

20k EHP is NOTHING, most ships will tear you apart in under a minute

and again: with your "fix" ecm ships wont have a value in solo fights, ecm will die first and will be without any protection whatsoever, how are you planning to take out even support ships if the rest of the fleet kills you once they lock you?

and dont say 150km range will help against every threat there is, that is IF you are at 150km range, and not if you jump through a gate and are suddenly in an enemy fleet at 5 km range, dont state situations that are highly unlikely as a given

also, if you fit only fightability (buffer, speed) and no ecm power (ecm upgrades in lows, meds full of ecm modules) on a falcon, you are pretty useless for your fleet, because then you can only jam about 1-3 targets the whole time

maybe you should think of a "fix" that doesnt make ecm completely balls and post it in a new thread
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#83 - 2012-03-08 08:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Wouldn't this make every ship fit an ECM to jam their own logi? The logi would still be able to target what is jamming it, right? Actualiy, that is a good thing! Would buff the pilgrim/curse for fleet engagements.

EDIT:
+1
I love all the falcon tears here!
Buhuhu! Your falcon is no longer an invicible I-win button!

I look forward to flying an interceptor to point falcons in the future.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-03-08 09:19:42 UTC
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
Wouldn't this make every ship fit an ECM to jam their own logi? The logi would still be able to target what is jamming it, right? Actualiy, that is a good thing! Would buff the pilgrim/curse for fleet engagements.

EDIT:
+1
I love all the falcon tears here!
Buhuhu! Your falcon is no longer an invicible I-win button!

I look forward to flying an interceptor to point falcons in the future.


no, as you stated, the ecm ships would all be totally useless, and save your looking-forward for the future, because a fix like this would never be even considered
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#85 - 2012-03-08 09:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombo Brian
i thought about this a little bit, how about an Anti-ecm module saving you from one succesfull jam 100%?

maybe like a cap booster, it defends a succesfull jam with a charge, and needs to reload 20 seconds (ecm cycle time)

since ECCM does not work completely, and ecm counter is hard to manage, i guess this would be an actual kind of good counter and would still not break ecm in its entire function

Or maybe let ecm just take out some of your max locked targets, but not with a chance based success, but 100% success

this way you can fit against it by fitting auto targeting stuff or sensor boosters could be modified to add lockable targets for a ship
it would be possible to fit against it, but when someone dedicates 2-3 jammers on you, you are jammed anyways, this of course limits the numbers of people the ecm user can jam
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-03-08 10:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Maybe ECCM that reduces duration you are jammed for?

I did in the past suggest that ECCM vs ECM was made dynamic... or rather Jamming strenght vs sensor strenght = that proportion between the two would dictate the duration of a sucessful jam.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=533243#post533243 here and

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=514108#post514108

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-03-08 17:09:42 UTC
Quote:
i did not say ecm was easy to kill, but if the fleet can get a lock on it, it IS first target and they will APPROACH you

Much easier said than done when you're tackled. As I've repeatedly stated: ECM ships have this really wierd tendency to come with a gang backing them up...

Quote:
and again: with your "fix" ecm ships wont have a value in solo fights

So what? Logistics don't have a role in solo fights and ECM ships make pretty lacklustre solo ships as they are.
Not everything is meant to 1v1.

Quote:
how are you planning to take out even support ships if the rest of the fleet kills you once they lock you?

... For about the 4th time, you're ignoring a little thing called "range". You know, that thing ECM ships have more of than any non-sniper ship?
How do you think ECM survives so well as it is? It's not like they're jamming the entire field, some ships will always be able to lock them, so why do they not die instantly every single time? Oh right yeah, because they're out of range of almost everything.
So stop acting like just because a ship isn't jammed it can insta-kill every EWAR ship on the field. It doesn't work like that. Not being jammed is only the first of several obstacles you need to overcome to kill a decent EWAR pilot.

Quote:
and dont say 150km range will help against every threat there is, that is IF you are at 150km range, and not if you jump through a gate and are suddenly in an enemy fleet at 5 km range, dont state situations that are highly unlikely as a given

So basically ECM ships are fine because there are situations where the fleets they're in **** up horribly. Sure thing.

Quote:
also, if you fit only fightability (buffer, speed) and no ecm power (ecm upgrades in lows, meds full of ecm modules) on a falcon, you are pretty useless for your fleet, because then you can only jam about 1-3 targets the whole time

Wrong, yet again. Have you ever flown an ECM ship? Because it doesn't sound like it. It takes 2 slots to give a Falcon a 20k buffer, the rest goes to ECM. The resulting ship has 6 jammers with solid strength and range, and even has hislot point defences that can fend off non-sentry drones and a fair amount of missile fire.
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-03-18 17:47:00 UTC
Bump

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
HalfArse
Wixo Trading Co.
#89 - 2012-03-18 20:00:06 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

As an analogy I would suggest that ships targeted by ECM be allowed to lock on ships or drones that are attempting to use ECM on them, even if they are unable to lock any other target. Maybe even ECM targeted ships should get sensor range and resolution bonus against ships using ECM on them.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).



problem I see is that all ecm ships are such that without the ecm stopping the target locking them - they are dead. The ECM is their tank. This change would just mean that the targeted ship would only be unable to lock other ships in the short space of time it takes to rip the ecm ship a new one.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#90 - 2012-03-18 20:10:27 UTC
Remove sensor strength and link jamming chance to sensor resolution.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#91 - 2012-03-20 04:41:24 UTC
As one who has fought against ECM ships many times, I can say the ECM's are fine the way they currently are.

ECM ships are very fragile and if the jamming cycle fails they are good as dead.

ECM ships are not solo pwn mobiles as they have very little offensive capability, not to mention most of the mids would be used for ECM's, so they must either sacrifice point, prop, or other utilities to maintain their capabilities.

ECCM's easily reduces your chances of being jammed by half. You counter ECM by sending drones on them, using FoF missiles, smartbombs, disengaging and reengage, etc.

If you don't have the capabilities to kill the ECM ship you don't really have what it takes or planned poorly.

You proposal will make ECM ships rather weak to have. ECM is their tank, without it they are dead.
Gen Fesslenski
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-04-06 15:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gen Fesslenski
NVM
2ofSpades
Doomheim
#93 - 2012-04-06 16:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: 2ofSpades
ECCM needs
A.)Buff (Maybe new complex ECCM mods for 1-2-3/10's?)
B.)ECCM rigs ~50% boost per t1 rig
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-04-12 07:48:10 UTC
Agree with 2ofSpades

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Hemmo Paskiainen
#95 - 2012-04-12 08:08:46 UTC
ecm is fine as it is now.... missed a ctcle = bye 200mil falcon

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-04-12 16:43:13 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
ecm is fine as it is now.... missed a ctcle = bye 200mil falcon

Your comments reeks of fear, so I just had to check.
And indeed, you are a perfect example of ECM not being fine. All you know how to fly is Sabres and Falcons, and you have basically 0 losses exactly due to Falcons. So of course you'd say they're fine, coz you're scared s**tless of an ECM nerf :-)

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#97 - 2012-04-12 17:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Chicken Pizza
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.


If these guidelines are followed, you still shouldn't be able to lock the ship that put ECM drones on you, because the source of the jamming is not the ship. It's the drones. Therefore:

Sofia Wolf wrote:
This would make ECM useless in solo ships...


This will not be true. ECM drones would be as effective in solo PvP as they have been.

Bubanni wrote:
No thanks, ecm drones are already more powerful than they should be regardless of it being chance based... 5 light ecm drones have a 27.6% chance to jam a hurricane, while 1 multispectral ecm has 15% chance, and a ladar specific has 23% chance... ecm drones should not have a higher chance than a module (since the other ew drones don't either)


You need to learn how probability is calculated. Each Hornet EC-300 has 1 point of jamming strength. A Hurricane has 16 points of sensor strength. The formula for the chance to successfully jam something is the following:

Jamming strength / Sensor Strength

So, 1/16 = ~6%

Each EC-300 has a 6% chance to successfully jam a Hurricane. The probabilities don't stack together because each individual drone/jammer is counted separately. You don't get a 30% chance to jam a Hurricane with 5 EC-300s on it because they don't combine their superpowers and jam as one.
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#98 - 2012-04-12 18:04:53 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Here, I'll give you a free lesson on how to fit and use an ECM boat. Seems you need it:
__________________________________________

Bad fitting.
__________________________________________


*snip*

__________________________________________

Another bad fitting.
__________________________________________


You both have horrible fits. I've flown both Blackbirds and Scorpions(dual boxing ECM and DPS ships, mind you) for quite some time now, and in small gang PvP, the only tank you need is the warp button. If you're getting insta-popped because you don't have any tank, you need to re-evaluate your roles and how you play them.


[Blackbird, The only way.]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II

Medium 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
Medium 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
Medium 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
[empty high slot]

Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Signal Disruption Amplifier I

Smartbombs for drones, no need to be beyond 70km from the fight. You have to STAY ALIGNED when you fly an ECM boat. It doesn't matter what your tank is. If you see a ship with sniper capabilities land on grid, you warp out, OR, if you were planning this incredibly well, you warp to another tactical safe on the other side. Simple as that. To hell with everybody else, you're more useful alive than dead.

Now you know how to fly a blackbird like a pro.

With that said, I don't care one way or the other if this gets implemented. I'll still be a kickass ECM pilot who knows his ships and limitations, and I'll still jam your fleet, regardless of whether or not you can shoot me back, and I'll ALWAYS have my very first Scorpion.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#99 - 2012-04-12 18:13:25 UTC
I like it. Possibly coupled with an EHP buff to pacify whiners, I could get behind it. Have a +1.

I'd back up Duchess and her arguments, as her arguments on how ECM is actually used are pretty cool, but the unverifiable claim of "I am an ECM pilot" on a character without combat history gets on my nerves.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)