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ECM nerf suggestion

Author
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#1 - 2012-02-29 23:10:28 UTC
In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

As an analogy I would suggest that ships targeted by ECM be allowed to lock on ships or drones that are attempting to use ECM on them, even if they are unable to lock any other target. Maybe even ECM targeted ships should get sensor range and resolution bonus against ships using ECM on them.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-29 23:31:11 UTC
I really like the idea just one thing, what if more then one enemy got ECM on you? Will you be able to target both or none?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-02-29 23:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Clicked on the thread expecting a suggestion that would nerf ECM to the point of being worthless.

Instead found an idea that's actually pretty damn good, I like it.
This would also go a long way towards making ECM less powerful in small gang fights, which are the main situation it could be considered overpowered.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#4 - 2012-03-01 00:01:53 UTC
This is one of the best ideas I heard so far, one of the most annoying things about ECM has always been the inability to fight back while ecm'ed... this will at least give the single guy a fighting chance to do something against the ECM :)

with that being said, ofc the ECM ships are normally out of reach of the guy he is using it on :) so in fact the nerf is not so bad, and in large fleets. the ECM normally goes against the logistics, they wont really be able to fight back anyway

for the people swarmed by some ecm drones, they will be able to target those drones and attempt to kill them before proberly dieing anyway :D (or at least send their own drones on them)

Wouldn't hurt to allow the ship to target all "things" attempting to jam your ship, as they are all sending "Noise" at your ship, if you ask me. (that will make the situration where ecm drones are jamming you more possible to counter, otherwise you could only target one at a time)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-01 01:52:06 UTC
While this would be a pretty big nerf to ecm drones (maybe increase their strength to compensate?) This seems the best idea I've seen so far.

Suprising.

I'm going to have to grudgingly +1

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-03-01 04:00:28 UTC
I like it! Big +1 here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-03-01 05:10:00 UTC
This simple fix is a great idea to the problem of sitting there helpless (which is mostly just annoying that you can't join in the fight.) Perhaps the ECM modules should increase signature as well, since they're blasting out a lot of EM noise.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#8 - 2012-03-01 07:47:22 UTC
Emiko Luan wrote:
While this would be a pretty big nerf to ecm drones (maybe increase their strength to compensate?) This seems the best idea I've seen so far.

Suprising.

I'm going to have to grudgingly +1


No thanks, ecm drones are already more powerful than they should be regardless of it being chance based... 5 light ecm drones have a 27.6% chance to jam a hurricane, while 1 multispectral ecm has 15% chance, and a ladar specific has 23% chance... ecm drones should not have a higher chance than a module (since the other ew drones don't either)

That also said, the duration that a single jam can get in on a target can normally be enough to mean the fight is lost or won (depending on which side your on)...

This is just my personal opionion, and I know alot of you love how powerful ecm drones are, because they are more effective than a set of damage drones - but it is what ruins solo pvp or very small gang pvp for alot of people :P I always think the target should have a chance fighting while dieing in fire

As late as yesterday I was considering going solo against a small gate camp with a few sabres, cynabal and frigs... but decided against it when I found out they had a falcon...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Zindale
Spias Inc.
#9 - 2012-03-01 08:09:57 UTC
Actually in RL what happen is a missile is able to lock on to the source of the White noise.

This we already have they are called FoF missiles they can be fired at any aggressive ship whether your can lock them or not. Therefore why do we need yet another module or change that make a Ewar ship redundant.

We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.
Xiles Eilop
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#10 - 2012-03-01 09:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Xiles Eilop
Only 4 - 5 boats in the entire game can really say, Oh man my drones will take care of that guy while im jammed to nothing.. too bad they'll end up killing your drones and you cant throw out new ones to target him anyways..

FoF missiles? people use those? kay ill slap two launchers on my hurricane and see how well that goes..

ECCM... ok maybe you'll get jammed once a minute vs being perma-jammed.... who needs a shield invul or a warp disruptor anyways....
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-03-01 09:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.

As someone who's flown every ECM boat including the infamous pre-nerf Falcon, I like to think I know what I'm talking about here.

1. Worthless. Takes up a slot while having no secondary benefits, and does very little. The chance-based mechanic of ECM contributes to this.
2. Also worthless - FOFs do hilariously low DPS and will only even target the ECM ship if you're lucky. They're also pretty much only applicable to the Drake, as that's pretty much the only missile boat larger than a frigate worth using.
3. Only any good if said ECM boat is even in range - not exactly likely if fitted and flown well.

In smaller engagements, ECM is overpowered. Simple as.
The reason it's so difficult to nerf is that it'd hard to nerf the EWAR without breaking half a dozen ships, but this idea makes it less viable for locking down an entire gang with 2 ships while still keeping it useful in an anti-support role. Best solution I've seen so far, frankly.
Meditril
Second Star
Cheese Party
#12 - 2012-03-01 11:13:05 UTC
I think this is a very great idea and it should be implemented. This would bring ECM more in balance with all the other e-war approaches.
joebro1060
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-03-01 11:14:07 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

As an analogy I would suggest that ships targeted by ECM be allowed to lock on ships or drones that are attempting to use ECM on them, even if they are unable to lock any other target. Maybe even ECM targeted ships should get sensor range and resolution bonus against ships using ECM on them.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).



This ability you speak of is in SOME missiles only. Those missiles can passively "home" on very strong amounts if radar or infrared EM waves. This application is not present in all anti air and anti ship missiles by any means and currently has an in game equivalent of FoF Missiles.
Zindale
Spias Inc.
#14 - 2012-03-01 11:30:37 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
[quote]We have 3 three counters to ECM already

The reason it's so difficult to nerf is that it'd hard to nerf the EWAR without breaking half a dozen ships, but this idea makes it less viable for locking down an entire gang with 2 ships while still keeping it useful in an anti-support role. Best solution I've seen so far, frankly.


No there is a even more Simple solution that does not involve having to make new modules that frankly will almost kill a section of the skill area. That is take your own Ewar with you in a small gang. This is the most simple idea.

it takes less time than trying to dream up some new module or cry on the forums because the OP dose not want to nerf their umber PVP ship by protecting against ECM.

ECM is fine as it is.

As any Ewar pilot will tell you ECM is not a dead cert. to work unlike any other EWAR system and the ships that have bonuses or are designed to use ECM are the weakness in their class, so as it stands ECM pilots fly with a greater risk of getting podded then any other member of a fleet.

As the old quote of Eve states 'Adapt or Die'
Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-03-01 11:43:52 UTC
joebro1060 wrote:

This ability you speak of is in SOME missiles only. Those missiles can passively "home" on very strong amounts if radar or infrared EM waves. This application is not present in all anti air and anti ship missiles by any means and currently has an in game equivalent of FoF Missiles.


FoF is not an equivalent to those RL missile systems, because FoF will just target anything and do low DPS. The anti-radar missiles look specifically for the source of the radar jamming and usually do enough damage to kill the thing.

So I would really like to see an equivalent in the form of a missile (or multiple, considering 4 damage types and different sizes) that only targets ECM sources and can actually do damage.

Also, the counter measure against RL anti-radiation-missiles is to shut the jamming off for a moment. This could also be used in EVE to stop the incoming missile from finding its target - with the penalty of breaking the jamming for a moment.

Interesting possibilities!
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-03-01 12:35:17 UTC
Quote:
This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).


It would actualy make the specialist rather useless and the non specialist more usefull.

If this whas the case it would probably be wise to fit EMC on you Logistics vessle than take a Falcon with you.


I don't have a problem with EMC being looked at though raw DPS should never be the option, at the moment EMC is one of the few things people need to keep in mind when making a fleet aside of DPS, I rather see more variation then bigger blobs of the same ships.

on a side note.

F.o.F. Missiles work fine you just need to invest in them and probably have a missile ship not one lancher at the side.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-03-01 16:37:22 UTC
Quote:
That is take your own Ewar with you in a small gang. This is the most simple idea.

When the only viable counter to X is more of X or overwhelming force, something is badly wrong and needs rebalancing. ECM fits this perfectly. Thanks for helping me make my point there.

Quote:
ECM is fine as it is.

Provide evidence/proper argument or **** off. So far all you've contributed is a list of "counters" that are at best situational and at worst utterly useless.

Quote:
As any Ewar pilot will tell you ECM is not a dead cert. to work unlike any other EWAR system and the ships that have bonuses or are designed to use ECM are the weakness in their class, so as it stands ECM pilots fly with a greater risk of getting podded then any other member of a fleet.

I am an Ewar pilot, thanks, unlike you by the look of it. Let's re-list your "counters" from my point of view, shall we?

1. Drones - I'm out of range of all but sentries. The only ships that can use those are a couple of battleships and two cruisers - hardly practical.
2. FoF missiles - utterly laughable. Even if I'm in range, and they fire at me, (two very big ifs there) they do pathetic DPS and most of them get shot down by my defenders. Yeah, FoFs barely even deserve a mention here.
3. ECCM - thanks for giving up a slot for something that only barely hinders me, guys. I've managed to get jams on 2 ECCM'd Basilisks at the same time before.

Oh and I think you mean "get blown up" not "get podded", as if you're not in a bubble it's pretty damn hard to get your pod killed unless you lag out. As for getting blown up - hey guess what, I'm too far out for most weapons to even reach me. I guess having a clue how to fly my ships is why I don't lose many ECM boats eh?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-03-01 17:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: SMT008
Massive +1 to the OP.

Truely massive.

Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

1. Drones - I'm out of range of all but sentries. The only ships that can use those are a couple of battleships and two cruisers - hardly practical.
2. FoF missiles - utterly laughable. Even if I'm in range, and they fire at me, (two very big ifs there) they do pathetic DPS and most of them get shot down by my defenders. Yeah, FoFs barely even deserve a mention here.
3. ECCM - thanks for giving up a slot for something that only barely hinders me, guys. I've managed to get jams on 2 ECCM'd Basilisks at the same time before.


I agree with this all the way.

Yet I think that ECCM suffers from 2 major disavantages. First, it's really uneffective. Second, the module itself is ONLY, USEFULL, WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER JAMMING SHIPS.

Think about it. You counter Neuts with capboosters, which are still useful in pretty much all situations, right ?

You counter sensor dampeners with sensor boosters, right ?

You counter tracking disruptors with tracking enhancers/computers, right ?

The thing is, all those modules have an utility. I mean, having tracking enhancers is great even if you don't encounter Curses/Pilgrims/Sentinels, right ? Sensor boosters are still useful even if you don't encounter sensor dampening ships, right ?

ECCM is simply worthless if you don't encounter a jamming ship and if he isn't jamming you.

It needs a boost in terms of efficiency, and it needs to affect more than one of the ship's electronic parameters. It could provide a (smaller than a sensor booster's) boost to scan res and targetting range, it could provide an additionnal +5 lockable targets ? It could provide a reduction of the total jamming time or something like that.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#19 - 2012-03-01 17:39:52 UTC
Zindale wrote:
Actually in RL what happen is a missile is able to lock on to the source of the White noise.

This we already have they are called FoF missiles they can be fired at any aggressive ship whether your can lock them or not. Therefore why do we need yet another module or change that make a Ewar ship redundant.

We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.


Right on, sister!

Having been stuck in the situation of being solo'd by a small gang with an ecm ship I'd say that yes, it is a pain in the arse sitting there not being able to shoot back BUT even if I could have I'd have been blown away anyways as I was outnumbered so it really makes no difference. In 1v1 I've never been beaten by an ECM boat because as soon as they lose that ECM my drones are on them and they die or warp off as soon as they get ECM lock again. The better the ECM the worse the tank. There are counters to everything in the game. Some of these are having other people about you. In a giant game of rock paper scissors lizard spock you win some you lose some.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-03-01 17:41:44 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL.


I stopped reading here.

You need to take another look at what game you're playing.
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