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ECM nerf suggestion

Author
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-03-05 13:48:21 UTC
Quote:
Saying something is useless isn't going to help your case. The devs included it in game and I think they know precisely how effective or ineffective it is. It's there and it works as intended. If ECCM gives you the impression it's wasting a slot then don't use it.

Hahahahahahahahahaha oh wow.
You know the devs included the Bellicose, Omen, and dozens of other broken ships and modules in the game as well right? And how rockets were broken for the better part of 2 years?
They may have been making some great efforts recently, but when they introduced this stuff they rushed it through with no idea how badly it would work.

Quote:
In the same way shield and armor resistances can not fully protect from damage only mitigate it so follows ecm and eccm. Adapt.

Flawed comparison and yet more idiocy. Armor resistances always work, and are never a waste of a slot.
Tracking computers are never a wasted slot.
Sensor boosters are never a wasted slot.
ECCM is frequently a wasted slot. It provides no benefit at all to the ship besides making jam cycles land slightly less often while putting a big dent in the ships tank, utility or both.

Also I notice you've not made a single valid argument as to why the OP is a bad idea. ECM stays powerful, but slightly more specialised - keeping the role it has in larger fights while no longer being stupidly overpowered in small gangs.
Zindale
Spias Inc.
#62 - 2012-03-05 13:52:14 UTC
The trouble with this suggestion is that you are looking for something to counter ECM when in a small gang.

As everyone in Eve knows you bring a modules to counter ECM in a small gang, almost every ship in a large gang will have it fitted and render ECM totally useless. Unless of course you are going to argue that that there would have to be a limit on the number of ships that could carry it (something that would be almost impossible for CCP to control) .

Your argument simple does not work.

ECM is here and here to stay. Stop trying to change something that will not be changed with a proposal that simple can not work in practise.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-03-05 14:47:55 UTC
I still wouldn't know why I'd fly a Caldari recon ship with this nerf?

Take any damage dealing BC and you can take out a logistic ship as well.

situation as you would discribe you solutions.

someone is stupid enough to buy a 400 to 500 million ISK ship specificly to seek out a logistic ship that might or might not be in a fleet.

Yeah there is one lets jam the logi -> entire fleet turns to Recon 1.5 second laters recon is gone.

Someone takes a 60 milion BC targets the logi and blows the living daylight out of it, locks next target and start shooting again.



There is no reason to fly a EMC ship whit this adjustment and more reason to fly DPS EHK ships, not that I'm against a change though it shouldn't render the ships useless.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-03-05 18:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
blah blah blah


As I said, I'm sure you could rearrange things here and there. It doesn't make a difference how many percentile points better your fit is in armor or speed than the generalized one I posted after toying in EFT for a few seconds.

1. No tank... it won't survive an encounter with any hostile whatsoever. What do you do if you undock and there's a hostile thrasher outside the station? Damn. Your overpowered killship sure lasted long. Or what do you do if SOMEONE WARPS ON TOP OF YOU AND FIRES FOF MISSILES? Maybe the reason FOF missiles suck is because ECM boat EHP sucks.

2. No highs? How do you defend against drones? Whine for someone else to disengage their target and defend you?

P.S. Under 20k ehp for a cruiser is weak tank. Under 1500 m/s for a cruiser is slow speed. Under 200 dps for a cruiser is low dps.

So far I have heard nothing but nerdrage and blatant disregard for the obvious from you. Frankly, you must be dense. There's no use reasoning with you. Posts hidden.
Blood Saken
Space Hobos LLC.
#65 - 2012-03-05 19:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Saken
eccm should make you completely immune the ecm. Some of you will say its stupid that one mid slot can make an enemy ship useless. My response is..yes..yes it is.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#66 - 2012-03-05 23:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
1. No tank... it won't survive an encounter with any hostile whatsoever. What do you do if you undock and there's a hostile thrasher outside the station? Damn. Your overpowered killship sure lasted long. Or what do you do if SOMEONE WARPS ON TOP OF YOU AND FIRES FOF MISSILES? Maybe the reason FOF missiles suck is because ECM boat EHP sucks.

Seems you didn't even bother reading the bit where I mentioned it jams out to 110km+.
Thrasher outside station?
Dead instantly from the gang said BB is with, or jammed while it warps off laughing at you.
You really are just grasping at straws now, trying to come up with situations in which the ship is slightly sub-optimal and/or has a stupid pilot.
Are you saying it being OP in small gangs is fine, because you can station camp it? What a load of crap.

Warps on top and fires FoF missiles? Warp out and back. 20 seconds effort on the part of the ECM ship, and the enemy probers have to start all over.
You realise it's standard practice to be aligned out flying one of these, right?
Oh wait, I forgot you have no clue how to fit one let alone fly it.

Quote:
2. No highs? How do you defend against drones?

By being hopelessly out of range of them. Are you really this stupid or are you just a troll?

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P.S. Under 20k ehp for a cruiser is weak tank. Under 1500 m/s for a cruiser is slow speed. Under 200 dps for a cruiser is low dps.

Oh dear. Seems I'm gonna have to put this in simple terms for a simple person:
Armour HACs go under 1500m/s. They're incredibly effective.
Scimitars do less than 200 DPS. They're incredibly effective.
Sniper tier 3 BCs have less than 20k EHP. They're incredibly effective.

Notice a trend here, newbie?
Different ships depend on different things to do their job well. ECM ships don't need DPS or speed to be good, because instead they have the ability to lock down multiple ships from stupidly long ranges.
And I'd just like to emphasise here: this is in a 10mil isk cruiser. The only viable small gang counters to it usually come in at 100mil+
When we start on the likes of the Falcon or Scorpion, it gets even harder from there. Falcons have lower range but insanely powerful jamming capability, and Scorpions have even better range than the Blackbird coupled with relatively strong tanks and point defences.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-03-05 23:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
I actually viewed your last post, just out of curiosity.

As I thought, replying to someone who had you blocked.

Herp derp.

Look, I know you think that just because something has the longest range, it automatically wins, but it doesn't always work like that. If it did, then everyone would be flying sniper rokhs and nothing else.

P.S. The way I rigged it was to make fun of you for your insistence that blackbirds must have a 100km+ range.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-03-05 23:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Also I notice you've not made a single valid argument as to why the OP is a bad idea. ECM stays powerful, but slightly more specialised - keeping the role it has in larger fights while no longer being stupidly overpowered in small gangs.


OP is clueless, doesn't use ecm and has no idea what he's talking about. The "ecm ships should be useless solo" comment sealed the deal.

And i've read your shi.tpost as well and feel exactly the same in regards to you.

Just a mad player who doesnt understand how ecm beats his guns and missiles.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-03-06 01:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Still not so much as an attempt at evidence/argument.

/Yawn.
I take it by the fact you haven't even attempted a proper reply that you're conceding or at least getting your brainless self out of this thread?

Quote:
Look, I know you think that just because something has the longest range, it automatically wins, but it doesn't always work like that. If it did, then everyone would be flying sniper rokhs and nothing else.

More oversimplified rubbish, get a clue what you're talking about before replying. It's not about on-paper range, it's how said range is used - in this case to easily avoid all but the most expensive/impractical counters. Not sure why I'm bothering to restate this, you were too brainless to get it the first time round but ah well.

Quote:
P.S. The way I rigged it was to make fun of you for your insistence that blackbirds must have a 100km+ range.

Yes, by all means do try and make fun, at least I'm not the one who thinks EWAR ships need to go 1500m/s and deal damage to be useful.
Why don't you go fit some overdrive injector Blackbirds?
Zindale
Spias Inc.
#70 - 2012-03-06 07:54:38 UTC
You still do not get it there are already ships and modules out there that can counter the so called overpowered ECM crusiers.

The Kitsune for one reasonable fast quick lock time and can carry it's own ecm and as been proven to be one of the most love Electronic attack ships as it can reach, lock and jam a Falcon before the Falcon can lock it, rendering the falcon infective and easy to kill and as most people do not fly this class of ship they are farely cheap.

Now yes i know you hate ECM and want nothing to do with it, but like i said earlier this idea will not be brought in due to the fact that it may make a small gang have a fighting chance against ECM, but as every ship in a gang will carry it it will make ECM useless in a large fleet

Adapt your tactics or accept the outcome it is that simple.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#71 - 2012-03-06 12:02:07 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
I like the idea, but also agree that unless ecm boats get something in return (either hp or resist buff or something) to compensate, you will simply turn ecm boats into merely sacraficial bullseyes.


I love how people keep saying ECM ships are fine because they have low tanks, apparently not realising that they're jamming at anything from 70-150+km. You'd be surprised how small an issue lack of tank is when you're that far out.

Also most proper ECM ships will still carry some buffer, my Falcon has something like 20k EHP which, while not award winning, is a long way from the "look at them funny and they explode" description people keep giving them.


This is truth. While I haven't been flying recons anywhere near as long as Dutchess, I can categorically confirm the truth of this statement.

I also agree that ECM can be ridiculous in small gangs, especially if you know what you are going against. However, it can also fail spectacularly. I'm recalling an engagement a couple weeks ago where I in my Falcon and a few bros in mostly cruisers and thrashers r4ped a Dominix, Apoc, and Wolf, due to my permajamming 2 of them, and getting about 50% of my jams on the domi.

In another engagement, with a rack of correct racials, I had to warp out sooner than I wanted due to missing a lot of jam cycles that I usually don't and getting drone aggro from an approaching Ishkur.

My point here is that ECM is still fairly random, so long as the targeted ships have a decent sensor strength. It is not reasonable to say that it's unfair that your Dramiel, AF, or other fotm angel/winmatar ship can't kill a dedicated ECM ship and all my bros solo. Of course it can't. It's like going to Compton in LA and picking a fight with a big black man. You're on his turf and he's got the advantage. Proper planning and tactics are needed.

ECCM works fine, so long as the ship it's mounted on has a reasonable sensor strength to begin with. Logis and recons are prime examples of this. If I know I'm going up against other ECM ships, I fit an ECCM instead of 5th jammer. OH, GOD! I just gave up a useful item to fit a not useful one!!1!!!1! Oh, noez! Wait, that enemy Falcon didn't jam me after all. I can still fight! Cool

A jammed ship is useless. An unjammed one still does damage and has to be considered, even if it has slightly less EHP or can web/scram.

Drones work very well vs ECM ships. But as stated, the controlling ship has to be in range for them to work. Fast drone boats like the Ishkur, Ishtar, Dramiel, and Cynabal all carry lots of drones. Get closer, wait for him to miss a cycle, and let him have it. Or, like the domi, use sentries and fit for range.

FoF missiles suck. They need a serious buff in damage. They also only target the closest aggressor, even if its a drone. They need to target ECM ships. ECM pilots would then have to adjust to counter the counter. This is good for evolving pvp and I would support it. It also fits the backstory as most missile ships are Caldari and Amarr.

However, I would like to see a turret equivalent. It is not right that only missile slingers have an option and turret ships do not. Perhaps reworking the passive targeter along with the target locking formula can be done.

I believe the way it is done now is that a hit with an ECM module reduces your max locked targets to an absolute value of 0. Perhaps a better way would be for the ECM module to decrease your max locked targets by whatever you max is, minus the passive targeter bonus of +1 per module). The passive targeter bonuses would be a different subset of locked targets that ECM cannot touch. This would be fair. In order to counter ECM so effectively, you would have to give up that slot. In fact, it might be OP vs ECM so that a damage reduction should be applied that would reflect the properties of a less accurate targeting system.

I don't want to hear about "I have to give up tank/dps slots so I can counter ECM. Wahh!!!" What do you think we are doing by fitting ECM? ECM modules are mid-slots and our bonusing modules are low slot items. Our ships do crap dps. The only thing we can do is jam or run. Thus we jam very well. It is also one of the few reliable ways of killing or neutralizing winmatar ships.

OP's suggestion is one of the better ones. But no one ship or fit is capable of dealing with everything out there. Not even Falcon.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-03-06 15:37:44 UTC
Assuming this was directed at me:
Zindale wrote:
You still do not get it there are already ships and modules out there that can counter the so called overpowered ECM crusiers.

I get it a great deal better than you do, thanks. If you'd bothered to read any of my posts, you'll see I listed a few counters of my own that are a lot more viable than "fit eccm roflz" or "JUST UES DR0NES!11!".
The catch is, they're all either:
1. Just more ECM. When the only counter to X is more of X or overwhelming force, something is wrong.
2. Horribly impractical or significantly more expensive than the ship they're meant to beat.

Quote:

Now yes i know you hate ECM and want nothing to do with it, but like i said earlier this idea will not be brought in due to the fact that it may make a small gang have a fighting chance against ECM, but as every ship in a gang will carry it it will make ECM useless in a large fleetp

How would the OPs idea make ECM useless in large fleets? It'd be instrumental in disabling enemy logis and support ships.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-03-06 15:49:55 UTC
I love watching stupid people argue with Duchess.

Sometimes you guys make it too easy for him.....but its always entertaining.

Please carry on.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-03-06 21:20:28 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
I love watching stupid people argue with Duchess.

Sometimes you guys make it too easy for him.....but its always entertaining.

Please carry on.

My friends and I have started a drinking game actually - we go down my recent posts and take a drink every time I make a slur on someones' intelligence.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-03-06 22:13:46 UTC
ECM was nerfed, and atm needs no tweaking IMO

Every Race has their big s├╝ecialisation or what you want to call it

Minmatar has some of the best raw damage speed and tank ships, guess why everyone is flying hurricane at the time

Amarr are Long-Range Evil, Abbadons will tear you apart from insane ranges

Gallente are the best Drone users whatsoever, making them actually pretty good against ecm in small gangs

And guess what, Caldaris specialisation is EWAR, and thus their ships have the most CPU and the best EWAR class

So, by nerfing ECM so far that anyone using it is without any protection, and even making ECM solo (unless using drones) completely useless no one is helped

Just because Minmatar is pretty weak against ECM and people tend to fly it often in PvP just means that only using Run&Gun or Ganking ships is not gonna end well

If you want to counter ecm, take a sensor boosting sensor dampener specialist with you
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-03-06 23:21:35 UTC
Quote:
ECM was nerfed, and atm needs no tweaking IMO

Yes, it was nerfed from "god mode" range to merely "ridiculous" range.

Quote:
Gallente are the best Drone users whatsoever, making them actually pretty good against ecm in small gangs

They certainly would be, if not for the fact only the Ishtar can deploy drones that are a real threat to ECM ships.* What Gallente are actually good at is close range DPS, which doesn't help in the slightest.

*Obviously the Dominix can as well, but really what kind of small gang lugs one of those around?

Quote:
And guess what, Caldaris specialisation is EWAR, and thus their ships have the most CPU and the best EWAR class

Yes, it is, hence the great EWAR ships. That doesn't give them a free pass to be overpowered, though. While you're not actually wrong on any point so far, you've not really given any reason why the OP idea is bad.

Quote:
If you want to counter ecm, take a sensor boosting sensor dampener specialist with you

Congratulations on being the first person in this entire thread to point out an ECM counter that isn't stupid. Damps are a pretty good module to use - with the drawback that their optimal range is actually pretty small. The result of this is that the damp ship is a pretty unreliable thing to use a lot of the time.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-03-07 20:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombo Brian
Well, if you want a reliable ecm counter, make a counter-ECM ECM fit, sensor booster for better si radius, caldari soecific jammers, and maybe use the kitsune to be a good and fast falcon or rook counter

the bad thing at this is that ecm ships tend to have a high sensor strength


however, the thing you want to do is make the ecm ships that are allready first target even more easy to kill though they atm have very little defense except their ecm, which after your kind of nerf will be totally useless as a defense and then suddenly the only EWAR completely useless solo


and about sensor dampening having too little range: 30km range and 60km falloff is not actually a bad range, and you can easily damp the targeting range of any ship to less then half its base targeting range with only two modules, and you dont need much time for your buddys to then get the drones attack the ecm ship


edit: and the best about sensor dampa is actually that they ARE reliable, they arent chance based at any way

a keres with sensor damps damping a falcon/rook with 2-3 modules will make it vulnerable, and then every team member can launch hammerheads at it -> boom

and if the rook/falcon engages too closely, drones will auto aggro it when being set to aggressive
Brisco County
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-03-07 21:27:15 UTC
This is a monumentally bad idea.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-03-07 22:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Well, if you want a reliable ecm counter, make a counter-ECM ECM fit, sensor booster for better si radius, caldari soecific jammers, and maybe use the kitsune to be a good and fast falcon or rook counter

When the only counter to X is more of X or overwhelming force, something is wrong.
We've seen it before with nanoships and supercapitals, and we're seeing it now with ECM.

Quote:
however, the thing you want to do is make the ecm ships that are allready first target even more easy to kill though they atm have very little defense except their ecm, which after your kind of nerf will be totally useless as a defense and then suddenly the only EWAR completely useless solo

ECM is easy to kill? That's news to me. Maybe I've just not seen enough brainless/unlucky ECM pilots. Their defence is range and to a lesser extent highslot point-defences and buffer. (And in the case of the Falcon, the cloak is a huge advantage).

Quote:
and about sensor dampening having too little range: 30km range and 60km falloff is not actually a bad range, and you can easily damp the targeting range of any ship to less then half its base targeting range with only two modules, and you dont need much time for your buddys to then get the drones attack the ecm ship

Actually it's even further than that, with about a 45k optimal - but that's still way too short. Once you're in falloff, damp cycles only land half the time at best. That's why damps aren't reliable for this.

Then you've got the drones attacking - ok so we're assuming every ship on the field has about 70km+ of drone control range? Fair enough, not too far outside the bounds of possibility but not likely.
Well,
1. My Falcon in particular has about 20k EHP and smartbombs. I think you can see for yourself what'll happen there.
2. This is for the shortest range ECM ships. The longer ranged ones can jam in excess of 100-150km. Good luck setting your drones on those unless you brought an Ishtar along.
3. You have the ECM ships' gang to contend with. That makes any counter a lot less clear-cut.

Quote:
edit: and the best about sensor dampa is actually that they ARE reliable, they arent chance based at any way

Correct - in optimal.
In falloff, that goes out the window.

Quote:
This is a monumentally bad idea.

Nice backing evidence you have there.
Oh wait.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-03-07 22:20:15 UTC
Stop spamming the thread with useless quotes from the same page. You aren't owning the argument. You're just oversaturating it with your opinion.