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Open Letters To The CSM & CCP

Author
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-09-23 17:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
In This Thread I poked the CSM’s.
[But damned if I can link it because of these forums **** coding--I will keep trying]

In it I wanted to see what would happen if they were forced to confront genuinely difficult questions. I was sorly disappointed with my so called “representatives” to CCP.







So in THIS thread I invite all of you to voice your concerns to our “EVE Gods” and “Representatives”




Here Is Me Giving It A Go (Takes A Deep Breath)







Bots…

Really freakin smart bots are at the forefront of the many issues plaguing this game. We are in an era where technology is advancing soooo quickly. CCP could not figure out how to get rid of the old ones, and now new ones are popping up that are smarter and more interactive.

I believe that eventually ALL MMO’s will have to openly address this issue and 1.) Find a way to deal with it in a realistic way (not this half ass’d “you don’t know how many we banned crap") or 2.) make it a legal element in the game play.

For ever bot you ban another pops up.
They run plexes, mine ore for supers and rat.
They even “hit primaries” in large nullsec engagements.





What I Want To See:

Is a public recognition on how prolific bots are atm and that CCP’s attempts to stem the tides have barely made a dent. If you live in nullsec odds are your supercarrier has some “dirty ore” in it, and the battles that you have fought have had bots hitting the primary right beside you (or at you)






Low Sec

Years and years have passed with the community asking for more. Just a little bit even… would be VERY nice. Even if its an upgrade to the faction warfare system planned 2 or 3 expansions from now It would still do WONDERS for restoring the dwindling faith of a jaded community.





Null Sec

More bots… More Blobs… More AFK Empires… Dominion didn’t do jack. It is the same old story now as it was before, the only thing that has changed is that it is arguably HARDER for the little guy to get his foot in the door.

Players are met with absurd rental agreements on top of their sovereignty fees, that ultimately encourages the proliferation of illegal botting. Once CCP said that they intended there to be “Few Titans” Errr… Say WHA! Now there are so many of them that you can just drop 30 Titans and decimate the enemy along side supercarriers and very LIMITED support. Blobs without support should not be a viable method of Sov warfare, and yet it is the preferred method to anyone who has the funds and the supers to do it.




Ok I will stop here so others can have a go…




Quote:

To the CSM’s, no more talk, no more “Nerfing WH Minerals” and no more bull****. This is what the community wants and has wanted for years. It should be at the forefront of everything that you do, and your top priority when talking to CCP. If your not willing to listen, move over for someone that will…




Ok people, lets here it…
Post your thoughts here (the more the better)
Maybe someone will actually listen…

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Hroya
#2 - 2011-09-23 18:27:43 UTC
Just cut off null sec from empire, only accesable through wormholes.

I could post a lenghty proposal but what are the odds the above would even happen in the first place.

You go your corridor but.

Morganta
The Greater Goon
#3 - 2011-09-23 18:40:56 UTC
Hroya wrote:
Just cut off null sec from empire, only accesable through wormholes.

I could post a lenghty proposal but what are the odds the above would even happen in the first place.




hmmm, interesting... sort of like Wurm where if you wanted to go from the pve area to the pvp area you had to swim across an ocean full of sharks for 30-40 minutes.
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-09-23 18:46:09 UTC
Blunt reality check for you regarding bots right now.

They've lost a hell of alot of players due to their.... decisions with incarna...

Right now the bots are providing them with a much needed income.

Taking a guess with the numbers of at LEAST 5000 bots...

14.95x5000= $74,750 per month.

Had they have not made poor decisions and bluntly ignored the community's wishes when they released incarna... There would still be two problems.


CCP would still be ignoring our plea's for them to do stuff about bots. Their whole activeness on the forums, and promices to turn things aronnd for the better... So the chances this thread would dissapear (and probably will anyway for the $$ reasons ive said above) to the back pages very quickly.


Secondly, why are bots used? Let's take mining bots for example. Legit players, majority of which are nestled deep within 0.0, use them. why? Mining is boring as ****. It needs redesigning. If CCP is true to their EULA like they "should" be - There would be alot of big names and alliances that would have an incredible alot of people posting under alts with hate threads against CCP for the loss of their accounts. CCP seem to understand the issue, yet refuze to act on it for two reasons. $$ from subscriptions, and they realise mining needs a serious overhaul, yet it's so far back on their "to do" list their current concensus is to turn a blind eye and let it continue untill they get around to the cause of the problem, which at the current rate wont be untill another 3 years, or even longer if CCP somehow manages to continue walkign down the same path that got them into this incarna-mess in the first place.



Now on the other hand - the ratting bots, the ones which fuel RMTselling sites, need to be dealt with. It would be in CCP's favor to tackle them head on, forcing people to buy ETC's for Isk rather than the cheaper alternative from the RMT Sellers. Again, CCP at this point in time wont dare ban the botters, they're paying CCPs' bills right now, and because of the mass players leaving in protest, they need every damn cent they can get.






What we should be focusing on is other issues that have been long ignored because it seems its far easier for CCP to ignore than actualy address the issue.




Here's a few examples.


AFK Cloaking


are moon minerals and the need to have them... move? deplete from a moon and respawn elsewhere.


0.0 Sov Mechanics


Re-Designing Mining so you dont want to commit suicide IRL after an hour of mining continuiously.


Allowing skillchange via evegate?

Etc.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-09-23 18:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Hroya wrote:
Just cut off null sec from empire, only accesable through wormholes.

I could post a lenghty proposal but what are the odds the above would even happen in the first place.




Just post it...
That is why this thread is here.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Prince Kobol
#6 - 2011-09-23 19:02:00 UTC
okay, those who say that Bots provide an incoming for CCP are FREAKING STUPID !!!!!

The vast majority of bots are being used by accounts that were paid with stolen credits cards / hacked bank accounts etc etc

Talk to any MMO developer and they will say the same thing.

Very few accounts that are used to grind isk / gold / whatever the currancy of the MMO are paid for using stolen credit cards and hacked bank accounts.

The issue with bots is that by and large you have 2 main camps.

The first is the single user. He may have 2 - 3 accounts and uses bots to mine ore or ice in high sec, mainly ice as it is a lot harder to spot.

Once he gets caught it is very unlikely he will bot again.

This people are not the problem.

It is the 2nd camp which are the problem.

The large organisations which use bots to run missions in high sec, who control vasts numbers of bots in null sec.

These guys sell the isk they generate to the RMT compaines for real money.

Eve is different to many other MMO's as its the players selling the isk to the RMT sites instead of them doing it themselves.

The only way forward is to hit these guys hard, but in doing that you will upset the big null sec alliances which also control the CSM...

That is why I can never see CCP going after them hard.

I would love for CCP to prove me and many other wrong but it hasn't happened so far.

I mean what ever happened to the Dev Blog Screeg was going put about regarding their effort against bots... maybe the Chair of the CSM, an old friend and Corp Collegue had a word :)
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-23 19:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cypermethren
Flawed logic there.

If they pay for an account with a stolen credit card, it will last a month or two. People get credit card bills once a month, they go thru them in detail, especialy so if someone feels their missing money.

That's just about the ammount of time needed to get a new character to the point that it COULD bot lvl 4's unattended.

This goes against logic, as they'd be wasting their own time doing this.

Its actualy more profitable for them(and safer) to buy ETC's and use plex for time on the account rather than link it to any credit card. If its linked to a credit card it gives CCP a name and number in which multiple accounts can be shut down.

The numbers side - how much money could you earn from doing L4's for 23 hours a day, 7 days a week for 1 month? Even if the number was only 2 billion, they use the isk they've made to buy a Plex, and sell the rest for more cash than a plex is worth. Its profitable, safer, smarter.

Take a look again at the numbers. CCP Is massively in debt, its relying on eve to keep going while it finishes Dust and WoD - the two things that put them into debt in the first place.

To go ahead and kill off, even 5000 botting accounts would be like taking a knife and stabbing themselves in the leg.




So you agree with the mining side of botting? Ok.


I should have expanded the ratting bots to incude the HS missioners - it was my intention to include them but i was not specific enough.



Honestly, you people need one hell of a big wakeup call if you think CCP will ban botting accounts right now. I wish a botter who had balls/accounts to kill would step forward and act as an example. We all know the issue (if you open you're ears/eyes and listen/look for it) the accounts of so many people whom have reported teh same person over 6 times in just as many months - to see them still botting, same place same char - the entire time. Someone, about 2 months ago went to great effort to list over 150 botters, dates, and number of times reported, and the status of the person currently. Not a single person in that thread was dealt with.


For those still assleep, wake up, this world is not nice, money IS more important to corporations than doing what is right. Need i remind you of the numerous Vaccine debarcles - in real life - where a vaccine company has numerous batches of vaccines contaminated, or simply go "off" due to useby date - to be caught shipping them out to 3rd world countries - to be given to people because an aid foundation had placed an order for X vaccines to be sent there as part of an aid package.

I emplore you to find a CCP "promice" on their stance, and how they deal with botters - then for you to go out and start taking names, numbers, and reporting - and see for yourself the harsh truth in this matter if you still think CCP will take customer faith/happyness over money at this point in time.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-09-23 19:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Quote:
The only way forward is to hit these guys hard, but in doing that you will upset the big null sec alliances which also control the CSM...



EVE Is Real...
Just like real life corruption at the highest levels.


Best quote ever.




Quote:
Honestly, you people need one hell of a big wakeup call if you think CCP will ban botting accounts right now


I never said that.
I said address...
Fix.
Or make it legal for the general population.


I also said all MMO's will have to confront this issue as the years pass (much more so then they are now) Bots are only becoming smarter, more commonplace and easily accessible.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-09-23 19:39:08 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Quote:
The only way forward is to hit these guys hard, but in doing that you will upset the big null sec alliances which also control the CSM...



EVE Is Real...
Just like real life corruption at the highest levels.


Best quote ever.




Quote:
Honestly, you people need one hell of a big wakeup call if you think CCP will ban botting accounts right now


I never said that.
I said address...
Fix.
Or make it legal for the general population.


I also said all MMO's will have to confront this issue as the years pass (much more so then they are now) Bots are only becoming smarter, more commonplace and easily accessible.



Making it legal will never happen. That would be admitting their game is so boring in some parts that botting is required unless you have........issues...... Which is what the current problem with mining is now. Bar mining for pocket change - if you want to build something worthwile, battleship and upwards - your'e up for days/hours/months of mining long hours to achieve it.

At current its still cheaper to buy certain equipment in bulk, haul it out to 0.0 and refine it into minerals than it is to mine, that is if you sit down and work out risk vs reward for time spent, and ships lost due to pvp, and downtime from people camping your system once they realise you're doing a mining op.

The fact that this issue has been around for YEARS - yet CCP still does not address it is what angers me.

They say they're changing, they say they're going to listen to the playerbase.....

but all we can see in their "look here's proof we're changing/listening to you" thread is a few changes that just happend to be the biggest 3 that the community has been bitching about for the past two months. Still no talk, not even saying that they're discussing the situation in the back rooms (not that it would count if they did - Like CCP say to us - judge the playerbase by their actions not by their words - we take the same stance with them - and as current its coming across as all boulderdash in an attempt at a bandaid to the problem they caused and once its calmed down, and subscribers go up it'll be back to their usual tricks)
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-09-23 19:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Quote:
Making it legal will never happen. That would be admitting their game is so boring in some parts that botting is required unless you have........issues......


Not if bots are prolific in other MMORPG's which they are.
EVE is no more boring or tedious then anything else, it is only slightly more entertaining.




But I don't want this to be a bot's only thread...
Is there no one else out there that has a voice that they want heard?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#11 - 2011-09-23 19:57:56 UTC
These Bots are getting very advanced. The other day one spent 45 minutes scamming me out of 5 plexes in Jita.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-23 20:16:58 UTC
AFK Cloaking.


Its actaly become a tatcic now to have throw away alts - ones trained to fly cloaks and drop covert cyno's.


Leave said alt wherever you want to camp 23/7. Do all the important things on you're main char (mine/rat/pvp) - while checking on the alt cloaker periodicly.


When juicy targets appear - light covert cyno - jump gang in - get kills - log out after aggression timer.





Needs counter - Again CCP refuzes to touch on the issue because - before the incarna stint - it would have caused too many QQ's from the people whom employ this tatic, and bias with the people who run the show liking using this technique themselves.




Provide a reasonable counter or change cloaking.


Morganta
The Greater Goon
#13 - 2011-09-23 22:00:59 UTC
Cypermethren wrote:
AFK Cloaking.

Its actaly become a tatcic now to have throw away alts - ones trained to fly cloaks and drop covert cyno's.

Leave said alt wherever you want to camp 23/7. Do all the important things on you're main char (mine/rat/pvp) - while checking on the alt cloaker periodicly.

When juicy targets appear - light covert cyno - jump gang in - get kills - log out after aggression timer.


Needs counter - Again CCP refuzes to touch on the issue because - before the incarna stint - it would have caused too many QQ's from the people whom employ this tatic, and bias with the people who run the show liking using this technique themselves.

Provide a reasonable counter or change cloaking.




are you for real?

so not only is the cloaker afk 23/7 now his entire gang is too?

sure they are, theres tons of places in eve where you find SB fleets gathered aroung blops ships just sitting there with the fingers up their backsides waiting all day and night for you to log in and start missioning so they can hotdrop you.

the butthurt is strong with this one.


Hroya
#14 - 2011-09-23 22:12:45 UTC
no links empire-null through stargates and thus no cyno

wormholes same level, no static exit. wh exits dont need to be scanned out, visible on overview just like gates.
no ship assembly arrays allowed in a wh. ( contain unstable component)

70-75% of ore and ice in empire moved to low sec.
no sec hit in low sec from kills ( no cops around to fine you)
dreads and carriers will be the top you encounter there.

upkeep for capships. low upkeep for industrial -> high upkeep for titans.
lesser upkeep when offline, max upkeep in catagoy when online.

Upkeep for every gate in system in null ( maintenance fee )

Faction ammo only in faction warfare store.
Joining faction lowers standings with other factions over time.
Higher standings = more lp payout on conquering low sec system via FW npc sov structure.
killing fw players will result in delayed docking timer, increasing with every kill
to fix, join fw to claim systems.
fw players killing none fw players lose standings and get less or no lp payout plus delayed docking timer.

null sec increased anomalies, only those drop faction loot.
reinforced fights. the longer you fight, the more reinforcements poor in, the higher the faction drops will be.

Low bounty on null sec npc's. empire factions dont pay for npc's killed outside their turf. Production and trade from null to empire is essential for income. Wormhole small gang fights increased at inceased frequency. more risk for wh day stripping.
Secure your traderoute at that time.

no t3 research in empire, only in null.
Monopolise the adventure into null in that area atleast.

Regional cyno blocking stations.
modular stations to eihter build up for industry or massive defense to secure industry behind.
fully deployed they requiere sizable fleet to take down and destroy. cant be cynoed past , attuned to redirect any cyne to within combat range. Stations subject to upkeep.

moongoo distribution is subject to depletion. moonminers send notification when new goo type is detected or current ones run low.

neutral assisting of ships that have none npc combat target results in delayed docking timer ( station has to make some security checks)

nex items in empire will be general assortment. exclusive items in null along with patterns to select your own clothing output.

No isk transfers from empire to null. transaction authorities are prohibited to offer that service by the ruling factions.
No clonejump back and forth, like with wormholes there is no link.

npc spawns in belts are randomised from a pool of various npc types, resulting in small scale incursions in every region.
subject to reinforcement up to fixed lvl depending on location.

T2 destroyer can be equiped with a "paint" launcher. Can be equiped various sizes of "painbombs" ( 1au up to 3-4 ?) that can be fired and subsequently detonated at desired destination resulting in a paint bubble sticking to any ship within the area. Cloaked ships will appear for a certain duration depending on the bomb lvl and can get locked on for warp in.






You go your corridor but.

The Apostle
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-09-23 22:20:04 UTC
Quote:
AFK Cloaking.

Its actaly become a tatcic now to have throw away alts - ones trained to fly cloaks and drop covert cyno's.


One of the biggest banes of 0.0 imho.

And it's not just for quick kills either, I've chatted with a few and a common reason is "system denial". Systems with higher numbers of Sanctums are often camped by AFK cloakies who go to bed in system.

Is it a form of griefing and/or reducing ISK potential? I've seen players aggro enough to quit a corp and go elsewhere? (Even heard it said that some CEO's use them to get players into CTA's!).

In my mind, any complaint must be accompanied by a potential solution though.

Only one I can think off is having the cloak effectiveness degrade the longer you stay in system. AFK or otherwise. Force them to use a gate occassionally and you have a chance to catch them.

Inactivity timers will only work on the ones that go to bed or forget to recloak.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#16 - 2011-09-23 22:25:38 UTC
Cypermethren wrote:
AFK Cloaking.


Its actaly become a tatcic now to have throw away alts - ones trained to fly cloaks and drop covert cyno's.


Leave said alt wherever you want to camp 23/7. Do all the important things on you're main char (mine/rat/pvp) - while checking on the alt cloaker periodicly.


When juicy targets appear - light covert cyno - jump gang in - get kills - log out after aggression timer.





Needs counter - Again CCP refuzes to touch on the issue because - before the incarna stint - it would have caused too many QQ's from the people whom employ this tatic, and bias with the people who run the show liking using this technique themselves.




Provide a reasonable counter or change cloaking.





any chnace they can fix the logging out bug, that dosnt actually log your ship out first.

as if you didnt you woudl have them dealing with a lot of i logged out and died 3h later mails

OMG when can i get a pic here

Solhild
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-09-23 23:05:06 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Hroya wrote:
Just cut off null sec from empire, only accesable through wormholes.

I could post a lenghty proposal but what are the odds the above would even happen in the first place.




Just post it...
That is why this thread is here.



Would you still allow jump freighters to get there from hisec - interestingCool
Hroya
#18 - 2011-09-23 23:37:28 UTC
Solhild wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Hroya wrote:
Just cut off null sec from empire, only accesable through wormholes.

I could post a lenghty proposal but what are the odds the above would even happen in the first place.




Just post it...
That is why this thread is here.



Would you still allow jump freighters to get there from hisec - interestingCool



Nop, every trade empire <->null goes through wormholes.
Hop around in empire based jumpfreighters in low sec if you desire to do so.

Wormhole traffic will make even the largest alliance subject to risk from smaller entities and it will be an essential trade activity to provide income for paying the null sec upkeeps. More space=more upkeep. More caps=more upkeep.
At first the impact will be minimal on their wallets but even the high rollers out there will need to take genuine risks eventually in order to sustain themself.
Eihter risk alot to keep what you have, or downsize what you have to lower the frequency of risk and thus more space available for other known or new entities in null.
Steamrolling with a blob of capitols will come at a hefty upkeep so that should downsize aswell over time.

Null sec does however have all the best minerals and all the faction items, plus t3 invention. So you can expect that those will go up in price quite heavilly in empire.

You go your corridor but.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-09-23 23:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
The above idea would be great if CCP made a new null sec that was only accessible via wormhole.
But to do this to all null sec would take to much away from the server.


Hell... I am hopping null sec entry points right now in a fleet of 14

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Hroya
#20 - 2011-09-24 00:07:58 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
The above idea would be great if CCP made a new null sec that was only accessible via wormhole.
But to do this to all null sec would take to much away from the server.


Hell... I am hopping null sec entry points right now in a fleet of 14


Atm you can acces null sec via wormholes allready, granted the entry points are not that abundand.
They could however let every wormhole contain 3 exits. 1 for null sec, 1 for low sec and 1 for high sec. The server useage on the current null sec connection points will be shifted towards those points.

As a result, the combination of the proposed idea's, bot activity will be lowered.
Yes, some amounth of accaunts may falter, not by the risk or change in their enviroment but more because their current activity may not be that suitable anymore.

You go your corridor but.

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