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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#41 - 2012-03-13 13:50:49 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:

Forcing people to do anything is not normally a good idea.

If you force people into a crap NPC corp and war-dec them constantly then they just won't stay in-game. People don't have to put up with crap and most are not willing to do so.


No, only those who stay in NPC starter corps because of the immunity would be forced into crap NPC corps after a certain period. If you set yourself goals and work towards them, you are rewarded with certificates and finally with an option to move to a better, non-starter, non-crap NPC corp - with advantages over the starter corp, with like-minded people. I think these people could enjoy an improved certificate system, give something more than just gaining more ISK and opening new gear via SP, while doing the same old grind. Titles, ranks, medals, whatever that symbolizes their progress, and maybe some concrete advantages and rewards that come with them.

I don't want to punish hisec-missioners.

However, eternal immunity from wardecs is not something that should exist in game, only new players should be protected from them. Older players with Marauders and all Vs should be perfectly capable of dealing with some hisec faildeccers, ffs. These better NPC corps should also have special mechanics that reward PvP activity. Shaping mission PVE to more resemble PVP is something that really needs to be looked at.

I think being able to say forever in say, University of Caelle, is terribly broken. It's a school, you should graduate or get kicked out. I don't think the game needs neutral, immune alts- please note that I have alts in neutral NPC starter corps, and still think it's broken and OP.

Quote:
Player corps in general are their own worst enemies, because they over inflate what their corps are like, they insist on knowing too much about characters, some insist on people signing up to external websites.


You are making grand generalizations with very little subject matter. Belonging to an awesome corp is the greatest thing I've experienced in EVE, and I'm fairly sure most would agree. It's the very essence of an MMO, doing stuff with others! Space friends > all the ISK in the world <3

I don't agree with "insist on knowing too much", and what is there to hide? Background checks are standard operating procedure ensuring the safety of all other members and corp assets. Also, why on earth would using a corp website an issue :S

Quote:
Also the problem with the NPC corps is that it's even less likely people want to experiment with player corps because once leaving the starter NPC corps you can't get back to them. Get rid of the fallout NPC corps and make it so you can get back to the starter corps and you might find people willing to experiment a bit more. Assuming player corps have not isolated themselves with sp requirements.


I agree with this. It's a bad mechanic, and quite probably results in unsubs. My idea of the "post-graduate corps" addressed this, you would be able to return to them after leaving a player corp. Not to the immune noob corp. (of course those with noob time left would still return to the noob corp).

Mainline is to isolate the forever-alone hisec missioners from new players, but still give them their own, meaningful place.

Quote:
Another problem is a lot of corps (decent corps) are not very new player friendly, there are exceptions of course (i.e. E-UNI).


This is also true. I think big part of this problem is time and effort - it's a considerable effort to train new players, and the opportunity cost is having fun with pilots who already know their ****. Improving the NPE and shaping it towards future corp life, outside of hisec missions, would be crucial. It would also be great to have some incentives for training new players, but it's difficult to think of mechanisms that wouldn't be open to abuse.




.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#42 - 2012-03-13 13:57:54 UTC
Yaris San wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
[I have little or no patience for the 'I want it now' crowd, I wonder how many other players who have been around for a few years have got the time to deal with that kind of attitude?


Funny, I think those 'other' players are the ones who have the 'I want it now' attitude.

Who do you think is buying PLEX or fully skilled characters on the Character Bazaar? Isk rich vets who 'want it now' and don't want to train a new alt.


I came here despite it being sci fi. Couldn't care less if it's a spaceship or a hyena with five horns and purple stripes that I ride, it's the sandbox and PvP element that lured me over. Basicly the game being described as dark and harsh, where you can be a corpthief or pirate and just get away with it. That's how the game was broadcasted back then at least, that's the adverts and descriptions me and my pals read, that's what pulled us here.

I.e. not so sure people talking about the 'spaceship' elements are correct, in many situations it might very well be the opposite, that they don't very much enjoy spaceships but want the PvP. When the PvP starts to lack (let's face it, small scale is fun, blobs is not), then they leave, because spaceships alone is not enough to keep them here. That's sort of the situation for me, I just occationally PvE and mainly shiptoast on forums, what made this game great is dead to me. When smallscale PvP revives, when blobs gets nerfs, and when income balance shift to low-/null rather than highsec, then I might very well be appealed to be play actively again.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#43 - 2012-03-13 16:26:31 UTC
In my opinion the problem(s) of keeping new players are different, depending on the time a newbie spents in EVE

1. most critical are the first 2 weeks, after that the new player has to decide if he subscribes or not, the tutorials are good or at least better now then they have been in the past, the problem I see is that EVE gets boring and frustrating very fast if you do not join a corp and only do PVE. This separates EVE from other MMORPG which are in generally far more entertaining for the lone wolfs. I assume a lot of newbies want to figure out EVE by themselves before they consider joining a corp. Its a (male) pride thing, try to do it alone before asking for help :).

Now we have two options: A. make PVE more interesting (and I am not talking about more rewarding) or B get people easier and faster into corps. B is where I see the problem...just go to the recruitment channel and look at the SP requirements, because of that many newbies end in corps which are suboptimal for them....A solution for that? Sorry I have no clue how to solve that.

2. Okay the newbie subscribes and we have a new player for another month but what after that month?
A. newbie leaves because he went into a suboptimal corp and EVE is boring
B. newbie leaves because he stayed alone and PVE is boring and in PVP everybody seems to be better then him (I am speaking for an assumed majority not for all newbies).

The biggest problem I see here is again getting in a good corp...I also assume a lot of players are more attracted by smaller corps, can be wrong here. A second problem is a lack of understanding of EVE mechanics, hell I only stayed past that first month because I read manuals and got fascinated by the complexity....yes I am one of these RTFM persons.

3. once you get a player to stay longer than the trial+1month sub...our chances increase dramatically that he (or she) stays in EVE.

In general I see the problem of keeping players primarily playermade not by CCP, EVE is old, Networks established, the frontier has been conquered and the metagaming is on a ridiculous high level compared to other games. We all know a new player in a frig can make a difference, but it is hard to get that message to the player, especially with the reasonable mistrust in EVE...AKA spy's and Alt's.

How to solve that, I have no clue, but maybe one of you has agood idea.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#44 - 2012-03-13 16:59:10 UTC
First off I would like to thank the OP on his fine use of Citations, helping us visualize his main point and providing us with corresponding facts and data. I also appreciate that he isn't at all vague and/or general on the subject.

I would like to note, as others have, that this game is not for everybody, especially with it's long steady progression as opposed to the standard 2 day powerlevel that most mmo's provide now. I like to think of it as a strainer in a sense as I feel it does a good job of removing those who wouldn't care for it any more at the later levels than they do currently. I'm sorry, you can offer to throw as many bones out that you want and the dogs still won't come.

Population fluctuations that we see on older games like this is rather common. One person gets bored and leaves, one person decides to come back to see how much has changed. One person decides he doesn't like the game, one person decides to see what its all about. AS it is physically impossible to please every player, as easily portrayed in this thread alone, it is bound to happen regardless of what the company does.


Constructive comment - You can replace standard concrete with cmu's and rebar reinforcement for your foundation saving up to 10% in overall building costs.

Asinine comment - If the door leads to no where then the best solution is to stay right here.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#45 - 2012-03-13 17:26:21 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

EVE loses more players than it gets in new sign-ups every single day yet it is still growing? Shocked


I think he means that of all the people who try eve, most do not stay, and only a few sign up.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#46 - 2012-03-13 17:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Vyr
New players observe the sadistic glee in which some older players hunt and kill them and either love it or get out of the pool for good. Tear harvesting has its drawbacks. One of those is new player retention.

Some of the game mechanics don't help either, but the kind of players who don't like long training times are not going to stick around anyways.

Eve rule #1: Don't trust anyone.

It's a realistic rule for this game but it really shoots itself in the foot
Doddy
Excidium.
#47 - 2012-03-13 17:37:03 UTC
Where exactly are these numbers coming from. Did someone see the player base down after the last bot ban and jump to conclusions or something

Eve has always been niche, any attempt to dumb it down will just drive away the core who have a big investment in the game already and replace them with low attention span thrill seekers who will desub in a couple of months anyway

Sure the tutorial system needs improving and some real content for new players that isn't missions (the worst, most pointless thing in eve) would be nice but if you compare it to what has gone before eve is constantly improving in that regard. I don't think there was a tutorial at all when i started never mind the flood of implants, skills, ships, isk, standings, training speed bonus and attribute swaps new players get now

What ccp should really do is implement the npc "school" corps properly and run them with volunteers. That might step on certain "train noobs in our terrible image" player organisations though.
DK Shadow
Dishonest Intent
#48 - 2012-03-13 18:00:38 UTC
This all started happening when CCP took the vast majority of the isk revenue streams out of belts and DED sites (when they were all static) and putting it into semi instanced stuff. I say semi as you can still get scanned down

Thats how we all ended up meeting each other for the first time, in a belt or on a gate or somewhere anyone else could hit a warp to. It was pretty easy to understand but took a while to master. The good thing is we all had to work together to get anywhere substantial and the only "solitary" activity was ratting in belts but that would often lead to some player interaction happening :P

The problem we have now is all the best revenue streams are all solitary.

Everyone does dedspace site scanning, missions and basically anything that is very easy to do solo and i find myself asking myself this question too often "why am i doing this?". If your just making isk for the point of making isk what’s the real difference between eve nowadays and a decent offline strategy game

What i think started all the decline was the ships far out of the individuals grasp. "Back in the day" (dont have a go at me for using that expression) i remember when owning a battleship was an achievement and i mean 2005 / 2006. Nothing was bigger or scarier than a battleship and technically anyone could train into one in a month or two, it was within anyone’s grasp so long as you could figure out the isk problem.

I could buy a titan or mothership now but i can’t think of anything i rather not own in this game to be honest :D. I guess i still want to play a game where the little guy can go out and pvp with the big fishes, knowing we were flying the largest class of ship and that some random massive thing couldn’t cyno in out of nowhere was fun

So to summarise some of my usual DK Raning: The big problem i feel for the new players is aspirations. The older players seem to talk out of thier behinds about what skills and ships new player NEED to be able to play the game. So it ends ups being Drake, Dominix and Tengu for the most part right

No matter what the newer players train for though they pretty much know that no matter how hard they work they arnt getting a titan, and if even if they train skills well for years they might be lucky to get into a mothership. So what, they can look "forward" to a carrier and a dread in a few years? What a load of crap they are, lets be honest

I'll die with my enormous pile of Armageddon’s in my hangar if stop playing.

Shove all the capital ships right up your arse CCP!

DK Rant over (finally)

DK Out o/
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#49 - 2012-03-13 18:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Tanya Powers wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?


The fact they need almost a year of strict training to be able to fly/fit properly their ship and do decent stuff other than fly around in rifters and pin stuff?
Actually there is none, try to build an alt (no one knows it's yours) put it in some belt mining with newb skills.
Your alt will not be able to get enough isk to replace his ship and buy his skills that he's already ganked.
When he's not ganked, he's about to be corp scamed.
So who in his right mind would stick around after being victim of those 2 CCP sponsored activities? -one day you have a thx mail from CCP because you gave them money to play their game and the other you have a GM telling you that getting scamed, ganked, stolen, is normal in Eve Shocked

Darth Gustav wrote:
The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game.


1st Noobs don't have access to incursions by any means and isk flow activities in eve, but the older players that are those already organised and logistics/time capable to run all day long incursion sites.

2nd what drives any decent player from whatever game is when he can't build faster than he looses and when something time consuming doesn't offer any kind of reward (training skills)
And the other thing that drives them away is when everyone tells you that you need a good 30M sp character to start having fun doing somethinng else than pin stuff with rifters, you can buy those characters from someone with real money on the internet or corp forums but the best way is with plex ,but before you need to buy GTC's...ho w8 !!

Quote:
Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it.


The bigger devaluing item in the game is not bounty or lp's, it's moon goo. You should know something about it right? Lol

Quote:
What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!


None for many other reasons than those you said or I think or many others can spew around. Fact is that playing Eve never turns you back any kind of reward for the time you spent playing it or building stuff.
Eve is a game for sadistic disturbed people that love to interact with masochist disturbed people. Just like everyone around.


First, "Hi Tanya!" Again.

It's true that Incursion fleets devalue ISK faster than a rookie (who doesn't have foreknowledge of the game) can make it. As a rookie, unless you are very industrious and already familiar to Eve, the PVE payouts are laughably small. Laughably. Small. It can take a rookie pilot several months to save enough ISK for a battlecruiser. In the past month I've watched the cost of BC's rise by almost 33%. How is a rookie going to do this on rookie wages? Answer: The ISK he's got is worthless, because of the injection of new ISK into the economy.

Now let's talk about moon goo. This stuff is generated from thin air at moon mining towers. That said, the ISK it is exchanged for is injected from, you guessed it, Incursions, belt rat bounties, high-sec missions, NPC buy orders, and anoma!ies. Simply running a moon goo operation does not add ISK to the economy, or even to your wallet. You have to successfully exchange the goo for real wealth. This means moon goo acts as a wealth modifier, changing who has control of the injected ISK, not changing who actually is injecting the ISK.

It also may be true that Eve is harsh, but it's not so harsh that it can't be understood. The newb player can, given sufficient intellectual resources, figure out new and better ways to earn ISK. But the fact is that many new players simply aren't cut out for Eve because it's not the game for them. For some of them it's a patience thing, for others they don't have the stomach for loss (loss-averse people should really avoid this game).

At the end of the day I disagree with your interpretation of Eve's economy, but I'm forced to agree that there's an awful lot of glass in the sandbox, and it takes one of only a few personality types to just suck it up and ignore the occasional gouge wound.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tekashi Kovacs
Golfclap Inc
#50 - 2012-03-13 18:12:23 UTC
And worst thing is that they will keep feeding us with new ships and stupid new skills, thus increasing cap between new and old players even more, instead of fixing an CORE game mechanics to encourage more players.

Death penalty is probably the main thing that scares most players off the game.

Decrease death penalty = more players comes

Increase death penalty = more players leaves

Its THAT easy.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#51 - 2012-03-13 18:19:41 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
And worst thing is that they will keep feeding us with new ships and stupid new skills, thus increasing cap between new and old players even more, instead of fixing an CORE game mechanics to encourage more players.

Death penalty is probably the main thing that scares most players off the game.

Decrease death penalty = more players comes

Increase death penalty = more players leaves

Its THAT easy.



Wow is that way --------->


This game is one of consequences, not full gear pad spawning with no fear. Your actions can actually make or break a fleet battle in this game whereas in those 'other' mmo's your flag camping at most may get you a group of teammates who are butthurt about your lack of participation in random pvp instance #47562829

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
DK Shadow
Dishonest Intent
#52 - 2012-03-13 18:22:41 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
And worst thing is that they will keep feeding us with new ships and stupid new skills, thus increasing cap between new and old players even more, instead of fixing an CORE game mechanics to encourage more players.

Death penalty is probably the main thing that scares most players off the game.

Decrease death penalty = more players comes

Increase death penalty = more players leaves

Its THAT easy.



Brilliant point Tekashi. My clones cost about 45 or 60mil now i think? Isk isn't a problem but it's the sense of value that's often make me not bothered. Why go totally mental in a crap-fit battleship if the pod costs you just as much? OR worse still, why go in crazy T1 cruiser raids when a pod costs you 60mil?

I had a chat about cloning with a corp buddy a while ago, we know CCP will never bother but here's our perfect mechanic we came up with:

1. Losing a pod means you never lose skillpoints
2. Clones still exist but in a different way.
First, you can only install your clone into a station WITH a cloning facility.
Second, the cost of the clone varies in a similar way to how office renting does so certain stations costs will be highser. The benefits to owning clone stations is increased too as you decide the costs for example.

3. Ok so what if i can't afford the clone in "insert pain in the arse place to get to if i dont clone here". Well if you dont want to pay for a clone you get the crappy noob corp you were in default clone. When you get popped with this clone, you get sent to a totally random state war acadamy or brutor tribe etc clone station not of your choice.

Luckily it's never happened to me, the losing millions of SP's for not realising the mechanics of clones. It used to happen a lot of new guys when i was new and most of them quit when they figured out they just wiped almost all thier skills out due ot installing a clone in a non clone station. Eve needs to be harsh, but seriously, anyone who says the current cloning system should stay over what i just typed above is a complete moron surely? :P

I'm logging off the forums now, i was particularly pissed off at the new patch so logged on to rage about stuff :D lol

o/ DK Out
Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-03-13 18:30:28 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Is someone running a forum "campaign" on the topic of new players somewhere?
All these similar sounding threads popping up is getting daft.


You MUST have noticed a trend by now ?


Anyway, is EVE DYING again ? I do hope so.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2012-03-13 18:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Thorn Galen wrote:

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?


It would be more accurate to say that Eve isn't retaining everyone that tries it... and that's very much expected. You might even try to represent it at as Eve not growing as fast as it could, instead of it "hemorrhaging" new new players. Your choice of verbiage is very poor and IMO does not properly represent "reality".

-Liang

Ed: Also, Eve has amazing growth right now. As of Feb 2nd, the EU TZ was up 11%, the US TZ was up 17%, and the AUS TZ was up 45% over the low point of the Monaclegate slump. Source: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4i

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#55 - 2012-03-13 18:42:13 UTC
They had their chance to have massive growth with Incarna by adding meaningful gameplay and content with avatars. Instead they decided the avatar revolution was just going to be an Alpha test for Twilight Online and have absolutely zero impact on your daily EVE life.

They ****** that up.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#56 - 2012-03-13 18:42:50 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.



The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game. Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it. What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!


You're pretty fail TBH. You can incursion in a logi, which is cheap and quick to get into. You can get in in a t3 cruiser. you can get in in multiple battleships.

Wormholes still make generate more income than Incursions, they have been "devaluing isk" since 2009. It is quicker to get into a BS than it used to be if you do want to missions, and you can still easily purchase a plex every month with minimal time investment if you choose to mission.

While you are complaining about the inflation of costs, you are not complaining about the inflation of income that mission salvagers are seeing right now. That is very typical in the current inflation debacle. everything you buy costs more? well yeah, everything you sell costs more too. fancy that.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-03-13 18:43:18 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
They had their chance to have massive growth with Incarna by adding meaningful gameplay and content with avatars. Instead they decided the avatar revolution was just going to be an Alpha test for Twilight Online and have absolutely zero impact on your daily EVE life.

They ****** that up.


Confirming that 11-45% growth in a few months is not "massive growth". Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2012-03-13 18:44:52 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:

Wormholes still make generate more income than Incursions, they have been "devaluing isk" since 2009.


LOLno. Totally false. Even if it were true, wormhole dwelling is far more risky than Incursions ever thought of being.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-03-13 18:45:22 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).


You don't have a shred of evidence to back this up.

Thorn Galen wrote:

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.


Thankfully you're a member of CCP's Board of Directors and personally know exactly what sort of growth statistics CCP considers good.

Thorn Galen wrote:

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.


Eve Online has had a continuous and steady increase in active accounts since the day it came Online. Even during the travesty that was Incarna.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-03-13 18:48:05 UTC
Eve is what you make of it. I wonder but will proablly never know is how many of the new subs are actually current subs applying for another account. I dont think it really matters to CCP aslong as that revenue is flowing and they are paying the bills. Honestly if you think about it......Its only a game, once the game does not become fun and subs start to drop CCP wil carebear it alittle more to increase profits and all will be happy. The only direction this game will go, will be towards the carebear rainbow but only when profits decrease.


I always wonder if or when this game folds maybe in ten years maybe 20 years but eventually they will shut these servers down, What happens to the players who have accumalated large ammounts of plex. Will they be able to turn them in for RL cash? Or will they stop selling plex a few years before the end so as those players may use them up and call it good.


Oh the forums of eve and how they entertain.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom