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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

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Author
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#1 - 2012-03-13 05:45:05 UTC
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#2 - 2012-03-13 05:53:03 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.



The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game. Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it. What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2012-03-13 06:04:15 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.
Ehm, no.

Japanese players have always been allowed to play (and always have played) on TQ. What's changing is how they get their accounts, and that they're getting a localised client. That may certainly bring more Japanese players in, but it's not like they're going to open some previously-closed floodgate.

Why do new players leave EVE? For the same reason they leave any other game: they find out it's not for them and they find out that the barrier to entry are too high for various real and imaginary reasons.
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#4 - 2012-03-13 06:04:49 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

...snip...

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

This has not been addressed 'as best as possible' - far from it in fact.

The 'new player experience' improvements that were brought in, were just that... Improvements. They are still utterly terrible compared to the tutorials made by the player-base themselves.

So, in my opinion at least, CCP have done well to come this far - but should in no way, consider their work done in that regard.


Thorn Galen wrote:

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Don't be daft.

Thorn Galen wrote:

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.

Please see above.
Also... using words like Asinine, while making statements like that last one, really takes away from your argument - in my book at least. Your experience may vary...
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-03-13 06:14:49 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

EVE loses more players than it gets in new sign-ups every single day yet it is still growing? Shocked
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-03-13 06:23:35 UTC
Eve is not for everyone and never will be. Working as intended.
Sturmwolke
#7 - 2012-03-13 06:59:58 UTC
Is someone running a forum "campaign" on the topic of new players somewhere?
All these similar sounding threads popping up is getting daft.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#8 - 2012-03-13 07:02:51 UTC
lol eve is dying

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Valei Khurelem
#9 - 2012-03-13 07:16:31 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Eve is not for everyone and never will be. Working as intended.


Sorry, but apparently EVE isn't even for the people who the game is designed for considering how low the subscriber base is compared to what it should be if it was so fantastic.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#10 - 2012-03-13 07:28:31 UTC
Only thing the japanese client will introduce is a new revenue of realtively cheap advertising to nexxon customers.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#11 - 2012-03-13 08:06:04 UTC
Hiram Alexander wrote:

Thorn Galen wrote:

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Don't be daft.

Thorn Galen wrote:

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.

Please see above.
Also... using words like Asinine, while making statements like that last one, really takes away from your argument - in my book at least. Your experience may vary...


Really ? That's the best response you can come up with ?
So you're quite happy to have a lot of nullsec essentially deserted then ? Have you considered that by having a larger playerbase, that even a small percentage of those players would be in lowsec and nullsec ?

As for the use of the word asinine, it's as plain and simple as it gets. I'm not even making any argument, I am asking questions.
Your book must be quite limited if all you are reading into this is a word and an argument.

Tippia - Yes thank you for that reminder. I believe they are getting a localised client and actually are not really looking forward to making their payments through that 3rd party. So in this case then I have erred in that EvE will not see a sudden explosion of additional players.


Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-03-13 08:15:25 UTC
As a (bitter?) old vet, let me relate my early days of being a newbie...

The game was a download file only without a true rating attached to it. That is, while today it is labeled with a "Teen" rating, back then it was borderline "Adult" with items and themes that matched. When my very first mission with Caldari Navy was to supply the agent with a stash of drugs because she was the local supplier, I knew then this game was not another kiddie game. But I am getting ahead of myself.

Aura was borderline indifferent towards new players. "Here is your rookie ship." "Undock using the yellow arrow keys in the lower left hand corner." "Target the station but do not shoot at it." "Warp out to an asteroid belt and target an asteroid." "Let the mining laser run until you collect some rock." "Return to station." And then it was a kick in the ass and told to go make my own destiny in this grand universe. No further hand holding was offered.

Players as a whole were much more mature in my opinion back then. You did not have the constant stream of slang terminology, much less the pursuit of "tears". In fact, players were much more helpful without the need to get a quit killmail when the odds were definitely in their favor. As a personal example, I figured out how to use the market and bought something that was cheap for my Merlin frigate. I set out to retrieve the item and whereas today I would get warning messages that I am about to enter low security space, back then there was no such stoppage. So away I went to get my module, exited the station, and stopped to watch two players shooting themselves apart. After one blew up and I was thrilled, the other looked at me and noted I was relatively new. So after a round of questions based more around how do I like the game so far, this person explained to me the various differences between the security spaces, various career paths in the game, and other finer points. Then this player told the local chat I was leaving the area and I was hand's off since I was new (and green). And yes, nobody went for a cheap kill and let me pass.

The agent rewards were much different then too. Until manufacturing players protested, agents handed me enough ammunition and missiles to rival modern day stockpiles (to this day, I still am wittling those piles). Occasionally I would be granted skill books as rewards, Hmm, "Sharpshooter" - whoa, this skill would be handy!, since there was no EveMon to set the perfect path. Nor were there remaps, much less skill queues to build the optimal set-up. What you started with based upon what you read during your character creator days was what you lived with from there on out. And while there were some similarities among the races, each of the four races were quite distinct in appearance while retaining that futuristic space look (still waiting for my battle scars / facial implants CCP)...

So back to the topic - over the years, CCP has made it easier and easier and easier for players to get into the game and get a foothold in the universe. Yet it seems to me the overall player base has changed to an instant gratification crowd: nobody wants to wait, nobody wants to ~work~ (in a game!), and everybody wants to be the hero right now. Players get these radical ideas in their heads that skill points equals experience points and will never "catch up". Hell, CCP has made it easier to "catch up" compared to years ago; yet new players do not see that. New players are not fond of cutting their teeth on destroyers and frigates - they want the biggest, baddest ships right now or else they are leaving. And if they are not scared off by the pure time element with skill training, they throw a tantrum when the ship's maiden voyage ends in a wreck because the subsequent side skills are poor to non-existant and there is no reset button in this game.

Is Eve dying? - perhaps it is... but if it means that CCP needs to rip out what made this game special to me and all the other players that have stuck around through thick and thin just to placate a new breed of players, then Eve would be camatose and on life support with the death knell ringing in the near future.

But that is my opinion.

Thanks for reading.
Maximillian Dragonard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-13 08:56:35 UTC
Two thumbs up for thisAttention

Wut?!

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#14 - 2012-03-13 09:14:00 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
Wrote a decent text


That was an excellent read, thank you Guttripper. Puts things more into perspective.
No, EvE is not dying, I would just like to see it grow more so that instead of 35K around 20h00 Evetime on weekdays and perhaps 50K on Weekends, I would love to see 60K+, no matter when.

I do not see any 'bittervet' comments in your essay, just by the way. I read things in there which would make today's EvE so much better for all. Thanks for that background of the past.

o/
Ai Shun
#15 - 2012-03-13 09:17:37 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).


I don't know what the numbers are in terms of new players signing up for accounts and then not converting, etc. but I would love to see them. Can you please share the data that led you to your assertion above?
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-03-13 09:25:11 UTC
niche product. all the potential customers who are ABLE to like EVE are already playing it. numbers won't grow. deal with it.
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#17 - 2012-03-13 09:25:52 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Really ? That's the best response you can come up with ?

What's the problem? You've kept the criticisms from my post, but neglected to quote the actual 'response' part... That's your own business of course, but what response had you actually hoped for?
Thorn Galen wrote:

So you're quite happy to have a lot of nullsec essentially deserted then ? Have you considered that by having a larger playerbase, that even a small percentage of those players would be in lowsec and nullsec ?

Well, let me start by saying, that if you think CCP are going to 'fix' nullsec for you, I think you're barking up the wrong tree... In my opinion, improving the retention rate of new players is unlikely to 'solve' this apparent issue of nullspace being (mostly) empty... For that, I suspect you need to look at the typical response of the major power-blocks when small-holders try to move in...

As for whether or not I'm, personally, happy about seeing all that space abandoned... Actually, no, I think it's a waste of great potential - but then, if Dominion had been properly iterated on/initially deployed, then things might well have been very different... There were some excellent ideas there about sectioning-off space, that simply never materialised.

But again, I see that as a completely separate issue to 'new player' retention.
Thorn Galen wrote:
As for the use of the word asinine, it's as plain and simple as it gets. I'm not even making any argument, I am asking questions.
Your book must be quite limited if all you are reading into this is a word and an argument.

Well, perhaps I misread your comment... an increase of 80k a day, where I come from, implies a steady growth of 80k every day... Which like I said, is daft - And to use your own word... 'Asinine.'

But perhaps you simply meant that you'd quite like to see 80k more people logged in, on average. If that's what you meant, then fair enough... Either way, you seem overly offended for someone who's posting in GD...
Abannan
Pew Pew Pirates
#18 - 2012-03-13 09:34:56 UTC
The issue I've always seemed to have trying to get my friends into eve is trying to explain to them how long they have to wait before they can do certain things, and do them well. I know its possible to have a ok-fitted rifter in a matter of days, (t1 guns, a small tank etc), but they fit it up, go into lowsec, and get popped by anything that gets on grid with them, I know when that happened to me it was demoralising but thats EvE, and although the newer players need to learn that sooner or later, it's not good for new player retention.

TL;DR, newer players feel the skill queues take too long to do anything

(before you all flame me, I don't want eve to be easier for new players and I'm completly against safe areas of highsec or instant gratification of getting good ships really quickly)
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#19 - 2012-03-13 10:00:36 UTC
Please show citation. Obviously we will see a lot of people try out the game and decide its not for them. For a MMO this is a niche game and every step to broaden its appeal is usually to its overall detriment.

New Eden is overcrowded anyway.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#20 - 2012-03-13 10:16:11 UTC
For many new players the biggest cause so far is griefing wardecs in High-sec and ganking on miners.
(New players rarely transport anything of value hence logistic ganking is less of a problem).

I'm not saying it should be different and I have done it myself, but it is really tough for a new player wanting to play with your friends facing more experienced players than yourself who war dec's corporations in high sec for money or tears.

People constantly claim more and easier pew pew in high sec. I get the point why, but honestly it will only cause more problems with people who are either learning the game or who have less interest in pew pew.

On the other hand rewards should ofcourse follow and an overall empire tax of 5-10% on missions, trade and mining could be a solution. On the other hand make it harder to wardec corps and alliances non-consensual.

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -

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