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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

First post
Author
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#61 - 2012-03-13 18:52:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:

Wormholes still make generate more income than Incursions, they have been "devaluing isk" since 2009.


LOLno. Totally false. Even if it were true, wormhole dwelling is far more risky than Incursions ever thought of being.

-Liang



Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#62 - 2012-03-13 18:53:49 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.


CCP Diagoras published the data on it, actually.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#63 - 2012-03-13 19:02:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.


CCP Diagoras published the data on it, actually.

-Liang


Who's fail now, Cipher?

By the way, all those ships you named? They all still take months to fly correctly. Months.

We're talking about retaining new players, who can't earn ISK as fast as it is being devalued.

Ever salvage a level one mission?

******* genius!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#64 - 2012-03-13 19:07:48 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.


CCP Diagoras published the data on it, actually.

-Liang


Who's fail now, Cipher?

By the way, all those ships you named? They all still take months to fly correctly. Months.

We're talking about retaining new players, who can't earn ISK as fast as it is being devalued.

Ever salvage a level one mission?

******* genius!


Meh, that was the only thing I had an issue with. Overall he's a semi decent (though extremely trollish) poaster. Eve is retaining new players and has amazing growth. Just for you: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-03-13 19:10:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Meh, that was the only thing I had an issue with. Overall he's a semi decent (though extremely trollish) poaster. Eve is retaining new players and has amazing growth. Just for you: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png

-Liang


Boom, headshot!

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#66 - 2012-03-13 19:23:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.


CCP Diagoras published the data on it, actually.

-Liang


Who's fail now, Cipher?

By the way, all those ships you named? They all still take months to fly correctly. Months.

We're talking about retaining new players, who can't earn ISK as fast as it is being devalued.

Ever salvage a level one mission?

******* genius!


Meh, that was the only thing I had an issue with. Overall he's a semi decent (though extremely trollish) poaster. Eve is retaining new players and has amazing growth. Just for you: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png

-Liang


Sorry Liang, this thread really isn't a debate over whether Eve has positive or negative overall retention. It's about what is driving away those new players who wind up leaving after their free trial, being counted toward negative retention.

Therefore I'm not so sure it was a headshot, either.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#67 - 2012-03-13 19:27:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unless the data just changed overnight I doubt that highly.


CCP Diagoras published the data on it, actually.

-Liang



I also remember that Cipher promptly discounted it in that very same thread.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#68 - 2012-03-13 19:42:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Sorry Liang, this thread really isn't a debate over whether Eve has positive or negative overall retention. It's about what is driving away those new players who wind up leaving after their free trial, being counted toward negative retention.

Therefore I'm not so sure it was a headshot, either.


You are throwing around some pretty serious verbiage by claiming that Eve is "hemorrhaging" new players. That verbiage is not even remotely consistent with observable facts - which in facts would say that we're keeping more new players than ever before.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#69 - 2012-03-13 19:44:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Sorry Liang, this thread really isn't a debate over whether Eve has positive or negative overall retention. It's about what is driving away those new players who wind up leaving after their free trial, being counted toward negative retention.

Therefore I'm not so sure it was a headshot, either.


You are throwing around some pretty serious verbiage by claiming that Eve is "hemorrhaging" new players. That verbiage is not even remotely consistent with observable facts - which in facts would say that we're keeping more new players than ever before.

-Liang


First of all, I did not "throw around the verbiage" (verbage?).

Second of all, when the issue was brought up, I addressed the reasons new players would leave the game.

The rate of growth does not imply that there is anywhere near reasonable retention.

Acknowledging growth is fine, but addressing issues that can improve growth is never bad.

So, sure, you have your observable facts which have nothing to do with the subject of this thread other than a superficial correlation.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#70 - 2012-03-13 19:53:25 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


Second of all, when the issue was brought up, I addressed the reasons new players would leave the game.




You addressed what you feel are the reasons new players would leave the game. Unless you care to give us a direct from CCP quote on what you said.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2012-03-13 19:54:55 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
First of all, I did not "throw around the verbiage" (verbage?).
verbiage |ˈvəːbɪɪdʒ|
noun [ mass noun ]
excessively lengthy or technical speech or writing.
ORIGIN early 18th cent.: from French, from obsolete verbeier ‘to chatter’, from verbe ‘word’ (see verb) .

It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#72 - 2012-03-13 19:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
THE L0CK wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


Second of all, when the issue was brought up, I addressed the reasons new players would leave the game.




You addressed what you feel are the reasons new players would leave the game. Unless you care to give us a direct from CCP quote on what you said.
'

So you're saying the reasons I gave are never a reason a new player would leave because...

CCP didn't come out and say so?

Critical thinking FTW.

[Edit:

We can talk semantics all you want. I addressed reasons new players would leave. It's that simple. Are there other reasons new players might leave? Sure. I bet there are. Were the reasons on my list comprehensive? No. Was it my opinion? Yes. Does that change the fact that this thread isn't about whether or not Eve is growing, but rather what the cause of new players leaving after their trial may be? Not for one red second.

That's precisely what I addressed.]

Verbiage. Neat. Thanks Tippia.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#73 - 2012-03-13 20:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Darth Gustav wrote:
First of all, I did not "throw around the verbiage" (verbage?).


Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to a 10 year old - no worries. Alright: you're throwing around words with some pretty serious connotations. You claim we're hemorrhaging* new players, when the facts of the matter are:
- It is fully expected and good that Eve doesn't retain every single new player that tries the game.
- Your "observation" is completely inconsistent with all observable trends.
- You have absolutely no proof for your "observation"

Quote:
Second of all, when the issue was brought up, I addressed the reasons new players would leave the game.


No, you addressed things that bother you about the game and you are projecting that dislike onto new players.

Quote:
The rate of growth does not imply that there is anywhere near reasonable retention.


It actually does.

Quote:
Acknowledging growth is fine, but addressing issues that can improve growth is never bad.


Actually, too much growth would destabilize the society and culture that keeps Eve Online the game that so many people like to play. In fact, if we go look at mmodata.net, we can see that NO MMO has survived a massive growth spurt.

Quote:
So, sure, you have your observable facts which have nothing to do with the subject of this thread other than a superficial correlation.


Ah, but they do.

-Liang

Ed:

Definition of Hemorrhaging:
1 : a copious discharge of blood from the blood vessels
2: a rapid and uncontrollable loss or outflow

This is completely and utterly at odds with what is observable about the game.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Ai Shun
#74 - 2012-03-13 20:08:25 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).


I don't know what the numbers are in terms of new players signing up for accounts and then not converting, etc. but I would love to see them. Can you please share the data that led you to your assertion above?


Thorn? Any chance you could provide the data, please?
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#75 - 2012-03-13 20:11:31 UTC
I started playing less than a month ago, signed up after my 2nd day on trial, I'm wishing I would have started playing this game sooner. I've always heard that this game was nothing but elitists and hardcore PvP, so I've stayed away for the past 8 or so years.

I'm not a PvPer, although I do enjoy a friendly duel now and then. I enjoy the atmosphere, exploring, and mining. I'm not worried about ISK/hour, I'm just enjoying the game, and having a great time.

I've tried to get friends from other MMOs to sign up with me, but they all say the same thing, EVE has a bad reputation, steep learning curve, and they'll never catch up with the veteran players so they won't even try it.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#76 - 2012-03-13 20:14:49 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
I started playing less than a month ago, signed up after my 2nd day on trial, I'm wishing I would have started playing this game sooner. I've always heard that this game was nothing but elitists and hardcore PvP, so I've stayed away for the past 8 or so years.

I'm not a PvPer, although I do enjoy a friendly duel now and then. I enjoy the atmosphere, exploring, and mining. I'm not worried about ISK/hour, I'm just enjoying the game, and having a great time.

I've tried to get friends from other MMOs to sign up with me, but they all say the same thing, EVE has a bad reputation, steep learning curve, and they'll never catch up with the veteran players so they won't even try it.


QFE.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#77 - 2012-03-13 20:16:14 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.


Three words, the other players. If EvE was absent of it's players new players would play a lot longer. The problem though is the EvE playerbase are paranoid, juvenile neckbeards that troll everyone else because they feel that they are so special that everyone else in the game are out to get them. Then there are the goons. So remove all the players and EvE will grow exponentially.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#78 - 2012-03-13 20:18:29 UTC
More and more people (Americans in particular) are losing their attention span and are becoming somewhat zombified. They can hardly drive cars any more. The new thing now in changing lane on the highway is to hit the brakes and stop traffic. It's the refresh rates of the TVs, the constant "depend on google for everything", ear buds and media at all times (most of todays 20 somethings were those kids you saw in the backs of the SUV each with their own TV with cartoons blaring at them), and finally the prozac and bad diet.

They come to EvE, there is no constant instant gratification, some initiative and level of decision-making is required to keep this game going, on the part of the player, whether they PVP or PVe.

They lose interest and leave. This is the soundbyte nation where everything is based on a 10 second attention span. This is the nation where "Angry Birds" is popular.

This game takes a living human brain with a supply of oxygenated blood. You don't see that much. Sure there are no undead shuffling around looking for brains to eat, but you have everything but that, they are still zombies.

I would love to see the actual statistics of who is coming and going, and what country they are from. I am betting that the "engineering student from Poland" is more likely to stick around than the "Art Major from California".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#79 - 2012-03-13 20:22:28 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.


Three words, the other players. If EvE was absent of it's players new players would play a lot longer. The problem though is the EvE playerbase are paranoid, juvenile neckbeards that troll everyone else because they feel that they are so special that everyone else in the game are out to get them. Then there are the goons. So remove all the players and EvE will grow exponentially.


An interesing take, and not entirely out of line with what I had to say.

These new players often can't get in a decent corp or a decent fleet. CCP has blatantly said that they want to figure out new ways to steer new players toward good corps to increase retention.

What I had to say about this pertaining to Incursions may be theorycraft and hearsay for now, but I think it's easy to see the inflation in Eve has recently ratcheted up a notch - and Eve doesn't do a good job of getting the 'valued' goods into the hands of rookies to sell early on. Level one missions are terrible loot/salvage opportunities. Compare those with Incursions, and try to tell anybody who's new that it's a reasonable discrepancy.

It's unlikely that will be an easy sell.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#80 - 2012-03-13 20:28:29 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
More and more people (Americans in particular) are losing their attention span and are becoming somewhat zombified. They can hardly drive cars any more. The new thing now in changing lane on the highway is to hit the brakes and stop traffic. It's the refresh rates of the TVs, the constant "depend on google for everything", ear buds and media at all times (most of todays 20 somethings were those kids you saw in the backs of the SUV each with their own TV with cartoons blaring at them), and finally the prozac and bad diet.

They come to EvE, there is no constant instant gratification, some initiative and level of decision-making is required to keep this game going, on the part of the player, whether they PVP or PVe.

They lose interest and leave. This is the soundbyte nation where everything is based on a 10 second attention span. This is the nation where "Angry Birds" is popular.

This game takes a living human brain with a supply of oxygenated blood. You don't see that much. Sure there are no undead shuffling around looking for brains to eat, but you have everything but that, they are still zombies.

I would love to see the actual statistics of who is coming and going, and what country they are from. I am betting that the "engineering student from Poland" is more likely to stick around than the "Art Major from California".


This totally explains why Eve is seeing so much more growth in the US and AUS than in the EU.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.