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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

First post
Author
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-03-13 10:30:35 UTC
I just think the main reason is EVE is just slow to get into. People start playing EVE realise it not a fast paced game and so leave to go back to where the action is.


I was one of the vocal ones during the get rid of the learning skill debates, but I never viewed their removal as a victory, it was a hollow victory at best due to the way CCP implemented the change. I would have liked to have seen it quicker to train (get into the game) at the beginning than it is currently.

But EVE is a niche game and if it stays the kind of game it is, it'll never appeal to the masses.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#22 - 2012-03-13 10:40:16 UTC
Meta does alot of damage to EVE in terms of new people. We are forced to assume every noob is an alt trying to destroy our corp/ alliance and history has shown that to be the case all too often.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Kara Murat Benim
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-03-13 10:42:49 UTC
2m sp for new characters :D
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2012-03-13 10:47:16 UTC
I'm pretty sure that all MMOs lose a certain proportion of new players.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-13 10:48:20 UTC
Maybe the game is like a RL corporation: if the corp has good (literally) base of experienced player who will pass their knowledge on young players to continue the tradition of well and professionally doing their duties - the corp will grow (or not) and will keep the respect of everybody ..

But if the corp start to care only for numbers growth in their ranks and let the majority of the employes to behavior like they see fit, without any respect for others - I think the corp wont last long or soon, the anarchy and bad things will start happening - and the customers and partners will start to decline the future cooperation.

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#26 - 2012-03-13 10:55:37 UTC
Introduce a maximum time limit for being in starter NPC corps.

You could leave at day 0 for a real corp, but you would be booted after a certain period. Booted members would end up in a scrapyard corp, that can be decced and has high taxes, and terrible standings to other factions.

People who aren't social enough to apply to a real corp could work toward graduation via improved certificates system. I'd like to see certificates that reward pilot activity, in addition to the skill-based certificates. Graduated pilots would get to choose from different NPC corps, with lower taxes and other benefits (compared to the failure corps), but these too would be wardeccable.

Main idea is to protect new players from the detrimental influence of eternal mission runner -npc corp people, and also offer these guys motivation to lift their game.

.

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-03-13 11:00:54 UTC
Roime wrote:
Introduce a maximum time limit for being in starter NPC corps.

You could leave at day 0 for a real corp, but you would be booted after a certain period. Booted members would end up in a scrapyard corp, that can be decced and has high taxes, and terrible standings to other factions.

People who aren't social enough to apply to a real corp could work toward graduation via improved certificates system. I'd like to see certificates that reward pilot activity, in addition to the skill-based certificates. Graduated pilots would get to choose from different NPC corps, with lower taxes and other benefits (compared to the failure corps), but these too would be wardeccable.

Main idea is to protect new players from the detrimental influence of eternal mission runner -npc corp people, and also offer these guys motivation to lift their game.




I think you misunderstand the point of the thread.

It's about how to retain new players not get rid of them.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#28 - 2012-03-13 11:08:17 UTC
Exactly.

I think the biggest problem is that NPC corps make new players think that EVE is about shooting the same old red crosses year after year, that lowsec is a horrible place and all nullsec is controlled by EVIL GOONS.

If they believe this, they completely miss out on everything that is wonderful about the whole game.

.

JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-03-13 11:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.


Somehow it does correspond with factx.
In history of eve growth of new player base was infact where getting into the game was harder- learning skills , no remapping etc.
Not only that it retained high quality players, that cares about the game.

Thorn Galen wrote:

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?


Catering to them giving them everything on a silver platter - they got bored fast and quit.

The above also generate problem that people think everything can be done solo and dont socialize enough , and this game is very much about that.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-03-13 11:14:43 UTC
Make the new player experience (tutorials) work like they should + make PVE more exiting + improve the UI/HUD = Job done.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#31 - 2012-03-13 11:19:11 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.


Five wrong, doesn't make it right.
EVE*

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#32 - 2012-03-13 11:20:23 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Please show citation. Obviously we will see a lot of people try out the game and decide its not for them. For a MMO this is a niche game and every step to broaden its appeal is usually to its overall detriment.

New Eden is overcrowded anyway.


That.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#33 - 2012-03-13 11:21:43 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
Stuff I agree with


I only really started playing back in 2009, when Apocrypha was released, but even in that time I've noticed that some of the players entering the game now are somewhat of the 'instant gratification' crowd and the sense of entitlement with some of them is appalling as evidenced here in the forums.

Part of what attracted me to the game was that it wasn't a skill grind and things took time, I accepted that when I created my account. I'd originally tried the trial back in 2007 when the races still had quite marked differences and you could make some really bad choices if you had no idea what skills you were choosing, but due to time and money constraints I let that slide and eventually get back in '09.

I had a good idea what the game was about as I'd been reading the forums and various sites for about a year or so before I took the plunge and the idea of the skill training being time based rather than based on how hard you could grind them out was refreshing for me. When I did get into the game properly I didn't feel like I could never catch up or that I needed to. Eventually I would be where some of the guys I knew with 5 and 10 mill sp were now so that was fine. I'd progress at my own pace and follow my own path.

But as Gutripper mentioned, now it seems that some players don't see the advantage of taking your time and waiting for things, they want it all now and unfortunately some see it that they can't do anything worthwhile until they get the sp to use better guns or bigger ships, while others get out in a tech 1 fitted rifter and quickly gain player experience rather than just character experience.

I have little or no patience for the 'I want it now' crowd, I wonder how many other players who have been around for a few years have got the time to deal with that kind of attitude?

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-03-13 11:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Roime wrote:
Exactly.

I think the biggest problem is that NPC corps make new players think that EVE is about shooting the same old red crosses year after year, that lowsec is a horrible place and all nullsec is controlled by EVIL GOONS.

If they believe this, they completely miss out on everything that is wonderful about the whole game.





Forcing people to do anything is not normally a good idea.

If you force people into a crap NPC corp and war-dec them constantly then they just won't stay in-game. People don't have to put up with crap and most are not willing to do so.

Player corps in general are their own worst enemies, because they over inflate what their corps are like, they insist on knowing too much about characters, some insist on people signing up to external websites.

Also the problem with the NPC corps is that it's even less likely people want to experiment with player corps because once leaving the starter NPC corps you can't get back to them. Get rid of the fallout NPC corps and make it so you can get back to the starter corps and you might find people willing to experiment a bit more. Assuming player corps have not isolated themselves with sp requirements.

Another problem is a lot of corps (decent corps) are not very new player friendly, there are exceptions of course (i.e. E-UNI).
In WoW when people join guilds and they join a bad one (plenty of those), they quite often stop using that character and just leave it dead in the guild and make a new charater or change servers. I'm sure that must happen here to a lesser degree although here they're just as likely to leave the game as there are no other servers to try.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#35 - 2012-03-13 11:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
When I was a bit more active and involved a few years ago, there were a lot less of those who are now the most vocal group of the forums.

I mean the pretend hardcore players, only in for the tears of others, to scam and to laugh at their misery .

Check the old forums, the time of 05, 06, 07, even a lot of the pirates were helpful, or at least honoring a ransom. Now we have people that make their main profession in EVE to extract tears from new and less experienced players, using stupid loopholes in the design of market orders to scam or just playing a metagame by suiciding ships in highsec, which I personally think is stupid. Btw. EVE was a PVP game before this crap happened.

Back in this days the barrier of entry into 0.0 was lower. There were still fleets going on daily but you had to be a slave to alliance leaders with ego problems.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Yaris San
#36 - 2012-03-13 12:11:59 UTC
People who enjoy PvP is a minority of the MMO gamer population.

In other MMOs, most people play on non-PvP servers.

I think people who come to Eve due so for the sci-fi theme. Once they learn its PvP anywhere any time some of them leave.

There's your churn.

In short, because Eve does not offer a non-PvP option those players who prefer to not engage in PvP leave quickly.

"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."

So say we all.

Yaris San
#37 - 2012-03-13 12:13:54 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
[I have little or no patience for the 'I want it now' crowd, I wonder how many other players who have been around for a few years have got the time to deal with that kind of attitude?


Funny, I think those 'other' players are the ones who have the 'I want it now' attitude.

Who do you think is buying PLEX or fully skilled characters on the Character Bazaar? Isk rich vets who 'want it now' and don't want to train a new alt.

"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."

So say we all.

JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-03-13 12:19:38 UTC
Yaris San wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
[I have little or no patience for the 'I want it now' crowd, I wonder how many other players who have been around for a few years have got the time to deal with that kind of attitude?


Funny, I think those 'other' players are the ones who have the 'I want it now' attitude.

Who do you think is buying PLEX or fully skilled characters on the Character Bazaar? Isk rich vets who 'want it now' and don't want to train a new alt.


Well we have to live with that but at least it doesn't spoil the game for the rest of us.

Someone else have to lose high skilled character in order for someone else to gain it.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#39 - 2012-03-13 12:30:35 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.



What are you basing your claim on? If you're referring to the sudden drop in peak concurrent users in Eve during the last couple of weeks, then that is because CCP struck the Ban Hammer on the bots by at least over a thousand according to CCP Sreegs but just less than 2000 according to him. Besides, according to Eve-Offline, the daily average of the number of players has seen a healthy increase since December of 2011. The daily average does fluctuate from time to time, but it has remain stable since 2009.

The only reason we haven't seen a giant increase in players is because Eve is the only game in the MMO market that allows players to be war-mongering maniacs to each other yet I am not seeing an exodus of any kind happening except for what happened to those pesky bot users.

Adapt or Die

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-03-13 12:50:46 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?


The fact they need almost a year of strict training to be able to fly/fit properly their ship and do decent stuff other than fly around in rifters and pin stuff?
Actually there is none, try to build an alt (no one knows it's yours) put it in some belt mining with newb skills.
Your alt will not be able to get enough isk to replace his ship and buy his skills that he's already ganked.
When he's not ganked, he's about to be corp scamed.
So who in his right mind would stick around after being victim of those 2 CCP sponsored activities? -one day you have a thx mail from CCP because you gave them money to play their game and the other you have a GM telling you that getting scamed, ganked, stolen, is normal in Eve Shocked

Darth Gustav wrote:
The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game.


1st Noobs don't have access to incursions by any means and isk flow activities in eve, but the older players that are those already organised and logistics/time capable to run all day long incursion sites.

2nd what drives any decent player from whatever game is when he can't build faster than he looses and when something time consuming doesn't offer any kind of reward (training skills)
And the other thing that drives them away is when everyone tells you that you need a good 30M sp character to start having fun doing somethinng else than pin stuff with rifters, you can buy those characters from someone with real money on the internet or corp forums but the best way is with plex ,but before you need to buy GTC's...ho w8 !!

Quote:
Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it.


The bigger devaluing item in the game is not bounty or lp's, it's moon goo. You should know something about it right? Lol

Quote:
What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!


None for many other reasons than those you said or I think or many others can spew around. Fact is that playing Eve never turns you back any kind of reward for the time you spent playing it or building stuff.
Eve is a game for sadistic disturbed people that love to interact with masochist disturbed people. Just like everyone around.