EVE General Discussion

You're trying to hoist me on your own petard. It is your calculation of per perparticipant impact that distorts the relative impact of these various isk faucets. A per capita evaluation retains the relative contribution of these different faucets and translates what is a large absolute number into a number that clearly shows how each isk from each of these faucets comparatively impacts the real purchasing power of people in the game.

Running around and trying to imply that Incursions are so impactful, right now, and then later when challenged claiming it is only a a measure of what MAY happen is not playing it straight.

I've posted the values per capita for you several times and it seems that you are now ignoring them in two places per thread now, here we are again:

For January, amount injected into the economy as a per active account value:
Incursions - 16.3 million
Missions + their bounties - 28.4 million
0.0 Bounties - 44.2 million.

Your calculation does not say anything about the real current impact on the Eve economy. Is it worth being concerned that something could go wrong in the future? Yeah, sure.

We will know something is up when the absolute value in trillions of isk that CCP_Diagoras will post in his Tweets will get larger, and larger and larger in comparison to the other values for isk faucets that are posted.

We will know there is a problem when there is rapid price inflation across all products (which we do not seem to have, but we need to see updated Price Index numbers). We will have good reason to supposed that it's Incursions if we see a per capita input value for Incursions that dramatically outstrips what an average player with average skills can realistically make from accessible isk faucets in a reasonably period of playing time, ie a significant drop in their purchasing power.



Yes, we already agree it COULD be a problem. Remember, the subject of the thread. The thing you thought your blog post answered. How all this discussion started. The question is what IS broken about the economy NOW (and if).

At this point, your answer is, "dunno, but I'm scared it could be this sometime later on". And it could be. So far, we have more evidence (from a very short time period, and we need to keep looking at this) to suggest that people are not swarming to Incursions. It would still have to be demonstrated that if they did it would be a problem. I'd be more inclined to think there was a problem if we saw a swarming effect.

Your supposition appears to be that Eve needs to have an equal amount of money coming into the economy in isk faucets as going out in isk sinks, and that if there is more coming in than going out the money supply increases and you get inflation. But most isk sits in non-circulating reservoirs, wallets, mods, ships, etc. etc. etc..

This is not all to say that there is no mechanism by which we can see inflation in Eve. But the fact inflation can happen does not mean that any rise in prices is a long-term problem and it does not mean that Incursions rewards is the cause of that problem. There are other things going on in the economy too.

The last 6 months we had no inflation. Price of plex have not changed.

If you go to Jita, you can buy just about any item on the market. Ergo, the economy is not broken.

It doesn't matter what prices are, so long as people are willing to pay those prices.

To Hartman Pitts:

Hartman, give it up.
You are trying to debate lucidly with an lunatic.

I have had several jousts with Tippia over the past months, and I have learned that like many others, facts and figures are meaningless to her. Ideology is paramount. Any calculation you post that destroys her position will be ignored and she will retort with hyperbole and lies.

I was hoping when I started this thread that she would ignore it.
I was a fool to consider such a thing.

It is likely better for your piece of mind to stop posting and let this thread die a quiet death.
I keep forgetting that the insane have a boundless source of energy and will eventually outlast the lucid.
Tippia will outlast you because she and others of the same ilk will ignore your truths and keep posting their own gospel, no matter how baseless in fact it is.

Eventually you will give up in frustration.
Do it now and save many cycles of typing.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to give CCP an example of the ridiculous comments many have about the Eve economy. I expected that very quickly Incursions would be dragged into it, and I was correct. I only hope that CCP does read this thread, observe the facts and calculations, and take them into account when deciding on changes regarding Incursions.

But Hartman, for your own piece mind, refrain from trying to post up logic against people who have a religious fervour against Incursions. You can never win. Logic never wins against religion.

Im sorry but Tippia is spot on and you are in the wrong here. Incursions ARE injecting too much isk into the system and prices ARE rising as a result. Everything is much more expensive not just PLEX and it is all still rising, if CCP do nothing to scale back the torrent of isk entering the system we will continue to see massive price rises.

No, he's trying to obfuscate facts by redefining the terms. Quite diferent.
Yes, that's why I always ask people to post fact and figures and why the first thing I did in this thread was to post the most coherent collection of relevant numbers that we have to date.

Idiot.

Maybe if you stopped using quite so many straw man arguments, we could have that dialogue and and you wouldn't have to go off track and pick fruit some completely unrelated tree…

The things you “stomped on” are almost exclusively arguments that I don't make. Try addressing what I say instead.

You demand I go read what you wrote, but you don't go read what I wrote? Get over yourself.

You claim that incursions is one of the largest contributors of isk to the game per participant. I said per participant is a wrongheaded way to look at it.

The reason why my number changes is because when you use per participant you are using a different denominator each time you run a calculation. Per capita uses the same denominator. Some how you think this subverts math as we know it?

I've been posting my numbers the entire way along. This has not been complicated to follow.

You're calling me a liar, other people idiot. But you can't seem to handle basic ratios.



Oiy Vey.

This is the calculation YOU do. YOU DID IT. I told you how I was calculating things. I told you why. You may not think it always applies, but you're calling me a liar. You're not saying, 'hey that doesn't apply in this situation because...'

In the case of missions, they DO activate another faucet. And we can come up with a calculation that roughly accounts for how they interact.

I have explained why we're talking about 5 faucets. The only reason we're evening talking about this is because you disengenously ignored my clear statements of what I was calculating and why and started calling me a liar.

And, look at this, this is still you engaging in semantics to avoid the substantive challenges. And still calling me a liar.

Is this some generic phrase you come up with when you get frustrated by someone? My nephew calls people poopie head. But he's 3.



I got my numbers from YOUR blog. They are posted right there. I used your month of January numbers. I posted the numbers that I used. I did the math right there.

But let's use those numbers that you just posted.

301.8 bn of 1,042.23 is 29% (28.96). One quarter is 25%. One third is 33.3333%. 29 is closer to 25 than it is to 33.333%.

These are your numbers. What YOU JUST POSTED! You are still showing me a number that is more correctly rounded to 25% and you are calling it 33% (1/3 - I feel like I need to identify basic ratios to you now)

But hold tight: according to the numbers posted by CCP_Diagoras for February, we get mission s 2.47 + 2.37, npc 32.1 and incursion 8.57, That means 23.2% for all of Feburay.

So let us be 100% clear, using the numbers you supplied on your blog for all of January, we get 1/4. For all of February, we get 1/4. For a single cherry picked day you used to make a blog post, you get closer to 1/4 than 1/3, but you are still going to sit there and say it's 1/3?

Is this where Im supposed to call you a liar?

No. Obviously not. You just seem to make mistakes at inopportune times.



Yes, and I've already discussed all this. This is the point where I'm supposed to screech at you to go back and read what I wrote, right?

You need to do more than just look at Wikipedia, or hey, you know what, why not try reading the entire Wikipedia page. Then, use your head for a moment and think about the ways in which Eve is disanalgous to the real world. I've already asked you specific questions about this topic.


Look, I'm done chasing around after this nonsense. You are obviously trying to avoid answering what are, to be fair, some challenging questions. When you are prepared to actually stop it with the forums games, ad hominem attacks, and intentional misreading and cherry picking your interpretations from my posts, I'm happy to read whatever efforts you make to answer my substantive questions about what you think are the connections between money supply and inflation and how you think that applies to Eve.

But it's getting pretty clear that you've been spending more time trying to play forum games and avoiding the hard questions than composing your answers.

delete

When Solo bans you from the Goon Forums and you can't figure out why, I want you to remember this post and the other ones you made above. They will help you through some dark times.