EVE General Discussion

Wont matter if it is "carrot or stick" some players are so asinine about the meta win even leading them to water when they are thirsty wont do the trick.

However, failing to see that the forums are in fact an extention of the game and that people tend to have agendas does seem a bit non-sensical also.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

While there is stratification in the mineral content of different security levels, there is not enough.

"Take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves." In EVE the pennies are the rocks everyone disdainfully shrugs off shooting as a profession.

Everyone seems to like niggling over the details while glossing over the big picture. Make mineral collection a viable career choice and pretty much everything else will fall into place. And until the drone regions get the makeover they so desperately need, mining will never be a worthwhile pursuit.

Mr Epeen

It's not anti-carebear or anti-highsec, it is pro-eve and pro-ccp.

Wonderful thread.

Amongst your wall-o-text you make some interesting points.

May I direct you towards my CEO, who is running for CSM this year and hopes to improve both the hi-sec war and sov mechanics.

Check my sig....

But my dear!!! You're using Logic where Politics run rampant.. *ouch*

It's always fun to see the "Nerf! High! Sec!!!" idorts try to enforce their own flavour of PVP on "the Sandbox" while completely forgetting that there are many more ways to PVP in EVE than just shooting shiney shipses.
Nice to see the metagame still runs strong in some.

Basic Game Design, especially in a PvP Centric Social-based MMO Game, generally has a gradient of risk vs. reward, leading players from low-reward, no risk noobie zones where players can learn game mechanics and basics, through "leveling" areas where risk is low-to-moderate and reward usually low, to end-game where risk (insofar as some games have risk, when you lose nothing but time) is high and rewards very high.

In most games, to see and experience the most productive (in terms of loot) content, you have to be part of a group, and have to be playing the end-game content. If you choose not to, thats fine, but you don't get access to the best/most the game has to offer.

CCP made, IMO, a good decision flattening this curve some, as it's one of the most hated aspects by casual and low-skill or anti-social/minimally-social/solo players. The trouble is, they went too far.

The amount of isk/reward one can generate in high-sec in an NPC Corp, where risk is exceptionally limited, rivals that of any other form of PvE-based isk-generation in EVE. The drive for players to want/need to put themselves at risk, or better yet to organize, socialize, and group up, simply does not exist. One could make trillions simply PvE'ing Level 4's in a nice, risk-free Sec. 0.5 system, and as long as they don't call attention to themselves via smacktalk, and don;t overly bling their PvE Ship, they ahve almost 100% safety doing so.

This is a flaw in game design. The abillity to make isk in High-Sec should be limited, it should be a sacrifice to choose to play only in High-sec, only PvE, in a PvP-centric game like EVE. You should not have access to one fo the ebst and safest sources of isk in the game playing solo, in a risk-free environemnt. It defeats the entire purpose of risk vs. reward.

I would support the removal of Level 4's from High-Sec. Max Level 3's would still be grinded by dedicated anti-social anti-risk players, but the amount they'd make (the reward) would be far more in line with the lack of risk. As it should be.

I would also support a very very high tax rate on NPC Corp Players isk'ing in Empire (High-Sec) Space. 50% minimum, 75% would be better, for any player over a set-amount of character-time or skillpoints. That tax would be waved for new and/or low-skillpoint players. Also, as it should be.

Nothing would stop players who want to make more from organizing, forming corps. to work toegtehr for mutual protection in low-sec environments to play their level 4's. Then they'd truly be a part of the EVE Game.

This would also have to go hand-in-hand with development of Null-Sec Sov. Rules to promote more than just "NBSI" and the like. There should be rewards for building more in Null than just a shooting gallery. Currently, Null is very focuissed on shooting everyone, rather than the kind of NRDS, Open to Players who are peaceful, Space Empire Building my own Alliance has oevr the years attempted. Any degradation of High-Sec would need a buff for NRDS Null-Sec to help foster building Null into more than what it is (in the vast majority) today. I should have good reason to let neutrals live in my null, and not just to kill them.

Sometimes the birdy has to be pushed out of the nest to learn to fly. In this case you are a pod being pushed out of a dead mission-fit raven.

[quote=Alistair Cononach]..

The amount of isk/reward one can generate in high-sec in an NPC Corp, where risk is exceptionally limited, rivals that of any other form of PvE-based isk-generation in EVE. The drive for players to want/need to put themselves at risk, or better yet to organize, socialize, and group up, simply does not exist. One could make trillions simply PvE'ing Level 4's in a nice, risk-free Sec. 0.5 system, and as long as they don't call attention to themselves via smacktalk, and don;t overly bling their PvE Ship, they ahve almost 100% safety doing so

This is a flaw in game design. The abillity to make isk in High-Sec should be limited, it should be a sacrifice to choose to play only in High-sec, only PvE, in a PvP-centric game like EVE. You should not have access to one fo the ebst and safest sources of isk in the game playing solo, in a risk-free environemnt. It defeats the entire purpose of risk vs. reward

I would support the removal of Level 4's from High-Sec. Max Level 3's would still be grinded by dedicated anti-social anti-risk players, but the amount they'd make (the reward) would be far more in line with the lack of risk. As it should be.

I would also support a very very high tax rate on NPC Corp Players isk'ing in Empire (High-Sec) Space. 50% minimum, 75% would be better, for any player over a set-amount of character-time or skillpoints. That tax would be waved for new and/or low-skillpoint players. Also, as it should be

..

This would also have to go hand-in-hand with development of Null-Sec Sov. Rules to promote more than just "NBSI" and the like. There should be rewards for building more in Null than just a shooting gallery. Currently, Null is very focuissed on shooting everyone, rather than the kind of NRDS, Open to Players who are peaceful, Space Empire Building my own Alliance has oevr the years attempted. Any degradation of High-Sec would need a buff for NRDS Null-Sec to help foster building Null into more than what it is (in the vast majority) today. I should have good reason to let neutrals live in my null, and not just to kill them.[/quote

Bolded the relevant points

For the first, I've always wondered what the current notion people have that PVE income exists in a vacuum, and that "risk v. reward" dictates that 0.0 direct PvE income must be greater than 1.0. Or that "risk v. reward" *really* dictates anything- if that were so, lowsec would probably end up the most profitable space around

System security status governs (among other things) how much you will be exposed to so-called non-consensual fighting (i.e. anything outside a wardec or FW mechanics). Systems are also "Empire/NPC" or "SOV" (i.e. what used to be the actual frontiers). As they move out into PvP oriented areas, why do people expect prime PvE content as well? Why *shouldn't* PvE be relatively even for base (i.e. bounties and LP) income, until you get outside of NPC space where it drops off entirely (and pirate-NPC-null really does need to be made a bit more sensible, with faction ships as the belt rats. If it's "empire but backwards" make it "empre but backwards."). The system already somewhat works this way, it's just that bounties need to be pulled from anything and everything in SoV space unless whoever holds the region pays for it. Yeah, there are a couple sore spots like shiny fleets abusing hisec incursions while lowsec incursions get to deal with rand-o-jerks but PvE is "mostly" ok, just really shallow and stale, and maybe some of the loot tables need minor fiddling to make people who actually like running missions more interested in doing so in lowsec because of better loot

Meanwhile, lowsec already has better prospects for profiting off of industry if you can hold your own in a decent bit of space (especially with the PI changes, but even before that you have better belts, access to moon mining, etc.), and far more for null (best ore, best moons, an easier time than ever to create an insanely secure presence)

For the second- one of the big problems with null is "my null." Got a big alliance parked in SoV space? Then you're all set. Looking to head out to the frontier and make your fortune? At least they have wormholes, because the frontier is long since tamed and the locals aren't going to take kindly to people just passing through (and helping themselves to the resources while they're there). Kill cynos with fire, and a lot of the "NBSI" would likely die down (a loner in a frigate isn't as scary when it really is *just* a loner in a frigate, even if it is a spy). Make jumping require either VERY SPECIFIC targets (pull regular cyno, everything now uses covert cyno, possibly even make supers require a black ops target to give them a reason to exist) or NO targets (but much shorter range, unless you're throwing ships between jump bridges). Once every neutral isn't a possible invasion fleet maybe we can scale back the insane paranoia a bit. That (and a lot of similar efforts to make a bet

There's one thing that always makes me laugh when the null kiddes ***** on about how much isk people make in hisec. If null is so incredibly dangerous why are there so many bots sitting out there ratting 23.5/7 filling peoples wallets with isk? If null doesnt give major rewards then why is moon goo so incredibly lucrative?

In short, if null is the shithole you claim why arent you running missions with everyone else in hisec?

Its simple - they want all the best toys because their playstyle is the "right" playstyle and in their eyes everyone else is doing it wrong.

Yes, they might be the people that invest more time in the game. They might be the ones that make the big selling points for ccp (butterfly effect trailer comes to mind). But I'm sorry, if they think they can have everything then they're just arrogant asshats.