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'Carrot and Stick' or 'Bait and Switch'?
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Alara IonStorm
#21 - 2012-03-05 21:57:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

At a guess I'd say it's to ensure that it's harder to gain back sec status than it is to lose it... to ensure that if you chose that life style (which is fine) you are prepared to live with your choice for a while.

What needs to be rectified is the fact that there is no viable option that promotes a "pirate hunter" profession.

I think Low Sec and Null / NPC Null should be 2 distinct areas of space that do not need to intersect.

Make Lo-Sec a Pirate Pardise with Sec Status killing Pirate PvE, hidden Outposts that cater to Low Sec Status, NPC Pirate Faction support structure and bounties based on ship lose to those that kill pirates. Make it so the Navy is not Piracy with a flag and most of all make casual Piracy disappear. Major Penalties to those that commit acts of Piracy and want to return to high sec that day.

Make Piracy for the Pirates and more supported. If you are a day tripper who wants to live in High Sec then you are killing Pirates, if not feel free to get your PvP fix in NPC Null or be ready to become a Pirate.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#22 - 2012-03-05 22:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Spenser for Hire wrote:


[...]
However, once they stopped Suicide-gankin' Macks, their hold on the price of ICE stopped as well. Why not give Alliances (or corps even) the ability to do this ALL THE TIME, without having to engage in Suicide-ganking?
[...]


I hate to spoil a good self-justifying rant--they can be so much fun!--but just one thing, bru:

You/we had the ability to do this "all the time," at least theoretically:

War-decs.

And then it was you, the saintly, persecuted carebears who screamed for their nerfing, and sure enough you got it with the now-legalised dec-shielding exploit. Leaving suicide ganking as the only legitimate "straight combat/offensive" way to do exactly what you're asking for, exactly in the way you seem to be asking for it.

Either doing them yourself/ves, or hiring mercs to prosecute them for you, the latter option especially having been almost totally gutted by the dec-shield.

You should have more of a care (Heh. Handsome Tarryn made a pun. And laughed at his own joke, so there!) about what you wish/whinge for in future, because you may get it. Again.

TL/DR:

You've left yourself--and your potential aggressors--with no other option in your misguided attempt to get CCP to "protect" you. Well, enjoy your "safer" space! But I suppose there is a form of safety in predictability, though I suspect that wasn't the kind of "safety" you really wanted either.

You've brought at least this aspect of the current situation entirely upon yourself. Deal with it. Arty-Thrashers are cheap, and as a proper carebear, I'm sure you and yours have plenty of sec-status to burn.

E:

Incursions are a completely out-of-control ISK-faucet, and one that needs immediate nerfing. Because the end result will, just like this, ultimately screw no-one but you in the end.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-03-05 22:14:58 UTC
Someone at CCP said: "We will listen to what players do, not what they say."

Holding ICE Hostage, controlling the ICE market is something that players actually desired to do.

How serious their effort was, whether they succeeded or failed, is totally irrelevant. It was, it IS something that players wanted to do. Something they wanted to do in the Sandbox.

However, the game's mechanics make it nearly impossible to do, much less sustain. they had to resort to attempts at Universe wide Suicide-ganking.

The Goons' attempt to Hold ICE hostage, whether real or not, testify to the fact that there are things that players want to do that game mechanics, that the game structure, makes it impossible to do.

Make it possible to Hold ICE hostage. Make it possible for an Alliance to completely control crucial game resources. Make it possible for an Alliance to drive the price of a crucial game resource sky-high! Make it possible for one Alliance to bring another alliance to its knees by controlling resources, by controlling a sector of space that is the only source of a particular resource.

Listen to what the players DID. Make it possible to Hold ICE Hostage.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
  • Nerf hisec (as those you criticize ask for)
  • Buff low/nullsec (as you ask for)
    • [/list]

    Both would fix the income unbalance problems. However, there are a few arguments for why to do the former rather than the latter. Buffing nullsec would have two effects:


    • More ISK gets dumped into the economy, worsening the state of inflation it is already in
    • Most of this ISK would be in the hands of nullsec powerblocs, which really don't need new chances to solidify their already too-powerful grip on large swathes of space


    Take a chill pill, give me your stuff, and stop posting angry threads based on raw ignorance.

    You point to no concrete evidence for your statements. Also, you are clearly Politicing; Saying that "...Null-sec Powerblocs ...don't need new chances to solidify their already too-powerful grip..." Using Out-of-Game means to control In-Game states.

    If a Powerbloc is too-powerful, that's up to players to decide.
    If a Powerbloc's hold on a region of space needs to come to an end, that is up to players to decide.
    Game construction should NOT be used as a means of keeping the size of an Alliance in check.

    Don't ask me to post with my main! You post with your main first!
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #24 - 2012-03-05 22:23:00 UTC
    Spenser for Hire wrote:
    Game construction should NOT be used as a means of keeping the size of an Alliance in check.

    The problem rests with an alliance from Fountain being able to participate in a fleet battle in Geminate and be back home, all in the span of several hours. "Force projection" is a term you hear tossed around a lot. "Too powerful" the way I expressed it was a bit vague. I meant "powerful enough that you cannot pose even a minor challenge to its fringe assets without being a large power bloc yourself".

    If that were solved, and it wouldn't be an impossible effort to get a good foothold in 0.0 I bet more hisec people would be willing to venture out there.

    On a different note...

    Spenser for Hire wrote:
    ICE


    Why do you yell every time you say "ice"?

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #25 - 2012-03-05 22:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    The problem rests with an alliance from Fountain being able to participate in a fleet battle in Geminate and be back home, all in the span of several hours. "Force projection" is a term you hear tossed around a lot. "Too powerful" the way I expressed it was a bit vague. I meant "powerful enough that you cannot pose even a minor challenge to its fringe assets without being a large power bloc yourself".

    If that were solved, and it wouldn't be an impossible effort to get a good foothold in 0.0 I bet more hisec people would be willing to venture out there.

    Well, you'd defnitely have real alliances as in group controlling bits of space rather than centrally organized.

    Still, moving about 30 titans from one end of the empire would be much shorter than the time it takes to wipe out the people trying to take some of your sov, unless you mean to restrict them to a Jump followed by a timer of 24hours or something.

    One would have to be quite ready to stomp on them the moment they gain sov though, as in a few weeks they might have cynojammers out. It would not be impossible for a large group of subcaps to go in and disable them but getting titans right in their face before that happens would be the best solution.

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Tarryn Nightstorm
    Hellstar Towing and Recovery
    #26 - 2012-03-05 22:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
    Stellar Vix wrote:
    I for one welcome ice removal in high sec. Replace with comets.

    -Vix



    Ice should be exclusive to losec, found through exploration only, with random, powerful spawns of advanced AI NPCs. These will hopefully ensure extreme difficulty/impossibility of botting, thus serving as a disincentive to null bot/RMT-lords to try and take these systems over (And make no mistake, they could do so, easily, if there was anything they actually wanted in empire-space.). Try seeing how much fun that would be, being owned/extorted/chased away constantly by these parasites.

    Maybe make ice refineable in losec stations only, as well? Genuinely unsafe-but-rewarding content--wormholes are the best example at present--that, through mechanics, is guaranteed suicide for bots.

    Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #27 - 2012-03-05 22:38:29 UTC
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    Still, moving about 30 titans from one end of the empire would be much shorter than the time it takes to wipe out the people trying to take some of your sov, unless you mean to restrict them to a Jump followed by a timer of 24hours or something.


    That is one suggestion others have put forward. I am not super-knowledgeable on sov warfare. I just know enough to know it's broken and why, but not enough to suggest balanced fixes.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Feligast
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #28 - 2012-03-05 22:40:48 UTC
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    If that were solved, and it wouldn't be an impossible effort to get a good foothold in 0.0 I bet more hisec people would be willing to venture out there.


    This is the most hilariously wrong statement in this entire thread.
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #29 - 2012-03-05 22:42:26 UTC
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    Still, moving about 30 titans from one end of the empire would be much shorter than the time it takes to wipe out the people trying to take some of your sov, unless you mean to restrict them to a Jump followed by a timer of 24hours or something.

    That is one suggestion others have put forward. I am not super-knowledgeable on sov warfare. I just know enough to know it's broken and why, but not enough to suggest balanced fixes.

    I was being only half serious, actually.

    A certain ~honoureable~ group would protest that it would leave them open to the predations of another group that tends to enjoy the heavy use of subcaps over supercaps.

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #30 - 2012-03-05 22:47:22 UTC
    Alavaria Fera wrote:

    I was being only half serious, actually.

    A certain ~honoureable~ group would protest that it would leave them open to the predations of another group that tends to enjoy the heavy use of subcaps over supercaps.

    There is usually a downside to actually committing to deploying a massive capital fleet halfway across the galaxy, yes.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #31 - 2012-03-05 22:56:34 UTC
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    I was being only half serious, actually.

    A certain ~honoureable~ group would protest that it would leave them open to the predations of another group that tends to enjoy the heavy use of subcaps over supercaps.

    There is usually a downside to actually committing to deploying a massive capital fleet halfway across the galaxy, yes.

    I like the way you think.

    But titans are balanced by the cost and difficulty of construction. They are perfectly balanced and hotdrops are the sword of a true internet spaceships game knight.

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Tarryn Nightstorm
    Hellstar Towing and Recovery
    #32 - 2012-03-05 22:58:31 UTC
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:


    On a different note...

    Spenser for Hire wrote:
    ICE


    Why do you yell every time you say "ice"?


    Maybe he thinks it's an acronym/backronym? Though what he thinks the letters would stand for, I couldn't begin to guess...

    Roll::Carebears::Roll

    Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #33 - 2012-03-05 22:58:35 UTC
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    I like the way you think.

    But titans are balanced by the cost and difficulty of construction. They are perfectly balanced and hotdrops are the sword of a true internet spaceships game knight.

    Hotdrops are fine. Being able to turn around immediately and defend because you ran face-first into a diversion is not. Also, instantly traveling a few LY is fine. Traveling from one edge of the galaxy to the other in a few minutes... is not really so.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #34 - 2012-03-05 23:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    I like the way you think.

    But titans are balanced by the cost and difficulty of construction. They are perfectly balanced and hotdrops are the sword of a true internet spaceships game knight.

    Hotdrops are fine. Being able to turn around immediately and defend because you ran face-first into a diversion is not. Also, instantly traveling a few LY is fine. Traveling from one edge of the galaxy to the other in a few minutes... is not really so.

    Ah well, you see I was continuing our earlier discussion about a timer after jumps into one of several logical outcomes.

    If you had say a two hour timer and hotdropped your titans somewhere, an enemy could get into a system and reinforce/blow up your POS (dreadnaughts obviously). Or if they had POSses in two systems reinforced you'd have to split your blob or only defend one. Imagine a 24-hour timer, even subcaps would be able to do a lot. Then it's a matter of shooting POS here and there until the titans jump in then go free for all elsewhere. Or if they drop five, well a dreadfleet could kill that, or subcaps could just run around to string out the titans.

    I'm also just poking fun at people that love their titan blobs and use it on offence and defence. Fortunately unlike titans themselves ( a massive wall of hitpoints) cynojammers are very very hard to jump into.

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #35 - 2012-03-05 23:12:08 UTC
    Don't look at me, I'm not an expert on titan battles myself. Right now I'm just trying to acquire a titan so we can have FW frigate hotdrops into plexes or missions to gank unsuspecting Amarr. Or just because we are too lazy to travel the 10 jumps to hostile space.

    I am also trying to get my hands on some carriers, so we can jump them in during battles, and every time a fleet member dies, the carrier just poops out a replacement Rifter. INFINITE RIFTER FLEET.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Ocih
    Space Mermaids
    #36 - 2012-03-05 23:17:43 UTC
    Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
    Stellar Vix wrote:
    I for one welcome ice removal in high sec. Replace with comets.

    -Vix



    Ice should be exclusive to losec, found through exploration only, with random, powerful spawns of advanced AI NPCs. These will hopefully ensure extreme difficulty/impossibility of botting, thus serving as a disincentive to null bot/RMT-lords to try and take these systems over (And make no mistake, they could do so, easily, if there was anything they actually wanted in empire-space.). Try seeing how much fun that would be, being owned/extorted/chased away constantly by these parasites.

    Maybe make ice refineable in losec stations only, as well? Genuinely unsafe-but-rewarding content--wormholes are the best example at present--that, through mechanics, is guaranteed suicide for bots.


    Making Ice exclusive to low sec/ No Sec would be fine if they added I-Hubs to high Sec systems that high sec players could invest in to replace the need for High Sec POS works. If people want to be a High Sec carebear, let them be a High Sec carebear.

    Rent an Office in a system, sink ISK, LP, numerous ingame items in to the I-Hub and get benefits to your Office from them. A few copy slots, some Invention slots, ME abd PE. No more public slots available. These could be additions you pay more for and require charters to keep up along with ISK. All sinks, not transfers, Null bears could do thier own dirty work and find out just how much fun it really is to mine that crap.
    Nova Fox
    Novafox Shipyards
    #37 - 2012-03-05 23:32:37 UTC
    I think ice in low only is a bad idea, there arent alot of low as it is.

    Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
    Spenser for Hire
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #38 - 2012-03-06 00:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Spenser for Hire
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    Spenser for Hire wrote:
    Game construction should NOT be used as a means of keeping the size of an Alliance in check.

    The problem rests with an alliance from Fountain being able to participate in a fleet battle in Geminate and be back home, all in the span of several hours. "Force projection" is a term you hear tossed around a lot. "Too powerful" the way I expressed it was a bit vague. I meant "powerful enough that you cannot pose even a minor challenge to its fringe assets without being a large power bloc yourself".

    If that were solved, and it wouldn't be an impossible effort to get a good foothold in 0.0 I bet more hisec people would be willing to venture out there.


    <"...without being a large power bloc yourself...">
    That's the whole point.

    Let's assume that the Goons didn't have to resort to Universe-wide suicide gankin' in order to control ice. Lets assume all the ice in the game is in an area totally controlled by the Goons. And the Goons, being Goons, raise the price of ice so high you have to sell a few Plex to be able to afford it.

    Most players in the game would have an interest in this, an interest in returning Ice prices to more sane levels. Such players would be willing to join a Coalition, not willing to commit to an Alliance, but willing to help some Alliance fight for and take just enough of Goon controlled space, so that they can mine Ice and return Ice prices to normal.

    On the forums instead of complaining about Carebears being carebears, you can turn your energies to exhorting players to get involved! Make a Stand against insane Ice prices!

    Don't ask me to post with my main! You post with your main first!
    Masamune Dekoro
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #39 - 2012-03-06 00:34:12 UTC
    Spenser for Hire wrote:

    incentivize


    "incentivizing"

    "incentivize"

    incentive



    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Skydell
    Bad Girl Posse
    #40 - 2012-03-06 00:40:42 UTC
    In EVE the carrot is just a stick painted Orange.