These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Factional Warfare: The ongoing abandonment saga.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#61 - 2011-09-15 23:12:27 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
Oh and I love how the devs are posting on like every thread in gen dicussion on the front page, except this one.


CCP Guard just responded here about Faction Warfare, and where it stands at the moment. Nothing of detail, but confirmation that it is being actively discussed and not "abandoned" as all the naysayers are crying about.

Not that his response will satiate the cynical, but for a lot of us its at least nice to know they aren't canning it in its current form.


Nice! Glad to hear SOMETHING..... man it's been a while. Let's pray they do in fact have more to say soon.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#62 - 2011-09-15 23:12:37 UTC
While I support ANY changes to FW, I'll respond with my opinion on a few recent posts.

Quote:
I often can only play eve for a half hour or so at a time. So I usually do not have time to wait for gangs to form up. So when you say you need a gang to cap a plex I'm already left out.

The other thing is having strong npcs in plexes would force me to either fit a repper to my ship (which 90% of the time means I do not want to pvp in it) or clear the npcs and then dock repair and go back to the plex. I do not fly very many active tanked ships for pvp.


This is a good point. I'm not sure NPCs should be completely removed in all cases though. There could maybe be 2 types of plexes, or maybe only the few larger types would contain them. The only reason I say this is that even with the absolute best incentives for PvP, there will be times where you run plexes and no one shows up. In those cases, having only a timer would be very boring. I'm sure there is a way to satisfy both of our concerns though. What do you think about optional NPCs? One's that won't agro you unless you trigger something. So if there is no foreseeable PvP, and you still want to run the plex, you have an option to keep you occupied. I still think the larger plexes should have some form of NPC no matter what, since you SHOULD have a decent force together to run them.

Quote:
The idea with the notification is that both sides have some influence (npc spies) in these contested systems. So from a role play perspective there is no reason they shouldn't give the ship types.


This is logically sound, but I feel that it's just too much information to be giving out. Maybe a plex tracker that updates once every 5 mins with how many enemies are in the plex or in the system. That type of information comes easily in other situations, but ship-types is always the last and most demanding scouting task, and thus should remain a player responsibility.

Quote:
But however it would work out it would be crazy and chaotic pvp like you can't even come close to finding anywhere else in eve.


Most definitely. It was very close to this in the beginning, before people became bored of the mechanics and lost interest in going out.

Quote:
But having effects where your ships stats or income are directly buffed or hurt has the danger of everyone joining the winning side.


I agree. Buffs for occupancy would imbalance quite badly. Maybe buff mission payouts somehow?? I guess that would have the same long-term effect. Maybe just stick to having the benefits be paid out for the actual act of plexing/system flipping.

Quote:
IMO CCP should just make low sec and fw for those who like small scale and solo pvp. Null sec can be for the large fleet fights.


For the most part I agree. The focus for 0.0 and low sec should be like you say, but not fully discouraging the other, of course.

As for 0.0 sov mechanics vs FW, I think the plexing system can evolve into something very nice. I don't think it needs to copy the "plant the flag" style of 0.0 or be some incarnation of it. Or vice versa. Both should be looked at, but there's no requirement to unify sov/occupancy mechanics galaxy-wide.

...sorry for the novel this time :P

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#63 - 2011-09-16 14:45:56 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
While I support ANY changes to FW, I'll respond with my opinion on a few recent posts.

Quote:
I often can only play eve for a half hour or so at a time. So I usually do not have time to wait for gangs to form up. So when you say you need a gang to cap a plex I'm already left out.

The other thing is having strong npcs in plexes would force me to either fit a repper to my ship (which 90% of the time means I do not want to pvp in it) or clear the npcs and then dock repair and go back to the plex. I do not fly very many active tanked ships for pvp.


This is a good point. I'm not sure NPCs should be completely removed in all cases though. There could maybe be 2 types of plexes, or maybe only the few larger types would contain them. The only reason I say this is that even with the absolute best incentives for PvP, there will be times where you run plexes and no one shows up. In those cases, having only a timer would be very boring. I'm sure there is a way to satisfy both of our concerns though. What do you think about optional NPCs? One's that won't agro you unless you trigger something. So if there is no foreseeable PvP, and you still want to run the plex, you have an option to keep you occupied. I still think the larger plexes should have some form of NPC no matter what, since you SHOULD have a decent force together to run them.


I suppose they could have some plexes with npcs and some without. We could then see which ones generate more pvp.


My view though is Either player militias will fight for occupancy or they will lose it. If no one is willing to fight that rifter running a major plex, well thats the cowardly militias problem. If they are notified about plexes being taken they will have at 20 minutes to get something out there and chase it off and run the plex themselves. If they can't chase a rifter off without first forming a blob well they won't be good at this game mechanic that works toward small scale pvp.

If militas are spread out throughout the fw regions this should not be a problem at all. If they sit in one big blob then of course they won't do well. But that is good imo. I envision always having a plex to fight for within 2-5 jumps no matter where you are in the fw space. More militia may jump in to the fight. You just never know. The only thing you will know is who is in the plex at the time and what the plex restrictions are. (so you know you won't get jammed by a falcon in a minor plex.)

I am really convinced adding npcs can only work to reduce the pvp. In major plexes if I am in a battleship getting hammered by npc battleship dps and ewar and see a wt battleship arrive (or a few bcs whatever) I will be much more likely to warp out than if I am able to fight the other player(s) on an even footing. No one wants to give easy kills because they are also fighting rats.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Freako X
Doom Inc
#64 - 2011-09-16 22:31:23 UTC
What would happen if it became a four way war?

Let's say the empires can't agree with how we're handling the Sansha incursions and it caused the factions to splinter?

It would increase the potential number of pilots. It could make for some interesting encounters.


I realize the focus was on the pve aspects of FW. What if there were more targets to pod? If all factions have the same number of pilots, then you're looking at a 50% increase in available targets. That's an increase to pvp. Four factions makes for more politics, more complex player interactions, etc.

Just a thought.
Count Austheim
Redemption Denied
#65 - 2011-09-16 22:47:09 UTC
People like to fight for their faction.

If this ships a´rockin, then im strangling someone....

http://count-austheim.blogspot.com
Rune Star
Trauma Ward
#66 - 2011-09-16 23:47:20 UTC
Wow, not one reply from the CCP devs amidst all the other posts with blue tags....

CCP really does hate you guys :)
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#67 - 2011-09-17 00:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Damassys Kadesh
Freako X wrote:
What would happen if it became a four way war?

Let's say the empires can't agree with how we're handling the Sansha incursions and it caused the factions to splinter?

It would increase the potential number of pilots. It could make for some interesting encounters.


I realize the focus was on the pve aspects of FW. What if there were more targets to pod? If all factions have the same number of pilots, then you're looking at a 50% increase in available targets. That's an increase to pvp. Four factions makes for more politics, more complex player interactions, etc.

Just a thought.


Just to clarify, you're saying each faction should be able to fight all 3 other factions? Currently, each faction can fight 2 of the other 3. For me, in Caldari, I don't think being put at war with Amarr would be better. Plus it would mix up the location where the factions are fighting certain other factions in a weird way, and currently allied factions can't do each other's plexes.... I dunno, I think that would be a bit messy and not be too beneficial.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-09-17 13:42:25 UTC
I'd kind of like to see the offsider factoins able to work together - see each other as friendly instead of neutral and able to help each other run plexes etc... Would make for some better PvP too when combined amarr/caldari fleets battle minnie/gal ones...
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#69 - 2011-09-18 22:05:29 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
I'd kind of like to see the offsider factoins able to work together - see each other as friendly instead of neutral and able to help each other run plexes etc... Would make for some better PvP too when combined amarr/caldari fleets battle minnie/gal ones...


I would like to see a moderate version of that actually. I like that each pair has their own area to fight over, so it would be cool if the allied factions can get a reduced reward for fighting the their ally's space. That way, they get something, but it would keep both areas equally populated.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-09-19 11:43:02 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
I'd kind of like to see the offsider factoins able to work together - see each other as friendly instead of neutral and able to help each other run plexes etc... Would make for some better PvP too when combined amarr/caldari fleets battle minnie/gal ones...


I would like to see a moderate version of that actually. I like that each pair has their own area to fight over, so it would be cool if the allied factions can get a reduced reward for fighting the their ally's space. That way, they get something, but it would keep both areas equally populated.

Reward for helping each other would definately be good...
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#71 - 2011-09-21 14:36:47 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
I'd kind of like to see the offsider factoins able to work together - see each other as friendly instead of neutral and able to help each other run plexes etc... Would make for some better PvP too when combined amarr/caldari fleets battle minnie/gal ones...



This might help balance things a bit if CCP fixes fw and Caldari has a huge numerical advantage. I *think* there are more minmatar than Amarr so that would offset some of the numerical advantage.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#72 - 2011-09-21 15:35:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Caldari has a huge numerical advantage.


Heh, it sure doesn't feel that way, and I heard that at least two major Gallente corps just rejoined FW, so it's going to be even more lop-sided. I think Caldari has more random, unorganized numbers.

But yeah, some form of mechanic-supported alliance in FW would help all around.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-09-23 01:20:32 UTC
I wonder if the latest dev blog will mean resources for FW???

Quote:
Intrepid pilots of New Eden!

Over the past days and weeks, CCP has been doing extensive and intense introspection and revitalization. The result of this is a refocusing and reprioritization on a scale unheard of within our company.

These are indeed defining times.

Torfi’s most recent dev blog provides some indication of what’s to come. We have decided, to focus our collective efforts on the areas you have asked us to focus on.

We will reveal more over the coming weeks. As certain details are prone to change, we want to make sure we have absolutely concrete information to give you. You’ve often told us that we promise too much and deliver too little, and this time we want to be certain that doesn’t happen. We are listening to you, we have heard you, and plans are already in motion.

Watch this space.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2011-09-23 02:59:38 UTC
At this point I am betting they will do something good for fw in the summer 2012 expansion. Which I think would be great!

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-09-23 03:45:26 UTC
Cearain wrote:
At this point I am betting they will do something good for fw in the summer 2012 expansion. Which I think would be great!

At this point I would be happy with them fixing plex spawn mechanics and balancing up the missions/NPCs a bit for winter... And maybe better information for noobs regarding what FW is when a rookie starts...
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#76 - 2011-09-23 04:52:32 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
I wonder if the latest dev blog will mean resources for FW???

Quote:
Intrepid pilots of New Eden!

Over the past days and weeks, CCP has been doing extensive and intense introspection and revitalization. The result of this is a refocusing and reprioritization on a scale unheard of within our company.

These are indeed defining times.

Torfi’s most recent dev blog provides some indication of what’s to come. We have decided, to focus our collective efforts on the areas you have asked us to focus on.

We will reveal more over the coming weeks. As certain details are prone to change, we want to make sure we have absolutely concrete information to give you. You’ve often told us that we promise too much and deliver too little, and this time we want to be certain that doesn’t happen. We are listening to you, we have heard you, and plans are already in motion.

Watch this space.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online




I'm very hopeful.

I think they should go the opposite direction in the way they release info though. They seem scared to release ANYTHING unless it's "concrete". But I think most people would rather hear SOMETHING, even very vague, to ease their minds. Just wherever they're at. If they are throwing around FW ideas non-committally, just say so. If a few weeks after, it gets officially pushed back a 6-month cycle, update us. I'd rather hear the whole process than wait until the last minute to hear every tiny detail. They won't break promises if they don't make them. They can make the promises late, but give info earlier ;).

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2011-09-23 06:16:55 UTC
The total members of a militia is a bit of a misleading number. There's a divide between those that are in FW purely for the missions and those that actively participate in the PvP aspect of FW. And the former seem to outnumber the latter.

If you look at the missions themselves, it's easy to understand why the Caldari militia has a larger membership than the Gallente militia. Caldari missions are easy to accomplish solo. Gallente NPCs use poorly-tracking hybrid turrets that can easily be speedtanked. Also, Gallente ewar - sensor dampening - is just an annoyance that slows you down at best.

On the other hand, Caldari NPCs spam missiles, which can some amount of damage no matter how fast you go or how small your sig radius is. Add together all the NPCs on the field and tanking a Gallente FW mission becomes a major concern. Further, Caldari NPCs use ECM. After the recent 'fix' that made NPC jamming comparable to PC jamming, it's not unusual to get permajammed in a Gallente FW mission.

As it's much easier to run missions for the Caldari militia - a solo manticore will do - it gets far more people that do nothing but. As a result, the size of the Caldari militia is larger in terms of absolute numbers. But this doesn't necessarily translate into more people that PvP or do plexing.


All this actually points to one of the basic design flaws of FW. The plexing, the PvP roaming, and the mission-running are all independant activities that have little to do with each other. People don't need to pay attention to plexing in order to PvP and run missions. In fact, most don't because occupancy is so meaningless. Similarly, the numerous fleet battles that occur daily between the FW militias, while fun, rarely affect territorial gain or loss. Lastly, missions depend on neither system occupancy or space superiority, so it's easy for the mission-runners to ignore all other aspects of FW. At best, FW missions are the lucrative money-printer that allow players to fund their roaming PvP and plexing battles.

The fundamental mechanics of FW need to be rethought in order to combine risk, reward, combat and strategy into something feels and plays like an actual war.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#78 - 2011-09-23 14:23:23 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Cearain wrote:
At this point I am betting they will do something good for fw in the summer 2012 expansion. Which I think would be great!

At this point I would be happy with them fixing plex spawn mechanics and balancing up the missions/NPCs a bit for winter... And maybe better information for noobs regarding what FW is when a rookie starts...



If they did this we would then be able to see if these changes are enough to really get people plexing. I doubt it will though. As long as the militia players don't know where plexes are being taken plexing will always be the job of alt armies and pvers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#79 - 2011-09-23 14:29:53 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:

The fundamental mechanics of FW need to be rethought in order to combine risk, reward, combat and strategy into something feels and plays like an actual war.



I couldn't agree more. What do you think of letting militia players know when plexes are entered so that they can try to stategically react to what is happening in the battlezone instead of "roaming around" looking for a fight?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#80 - 2011-09-23 14:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Damassys Kadesh wrote:

Quote:
The idea with the notification is that both sides have some influence (npc spies) in these contested systems. So from a role play perspective there is no reason they shouldn't give the ship types.


This is logically sound, but I feel that it's just too much information to be giving out. Maybe a plex tracker that updates once every 5 mins with how many enemies are in the plex or in the system. That type of information comes easily in other situations, but ship-types is always the last and most demanding scouting task, and thus should remain a player responsibility.


Players would only know what ships are in the plex. The reason I think they should know this is not only because it makes sense from an immersion/role play perspective, but mainly because it would make for better game play.

My view is that anything that brings more quality pvp fights faster is good. Letting other players know what ships are in there will promote this goal. Keeping it a secret will cut against it.

For example you find out an enemy is in a medium plex 4 jumps over. You are in a frigate. You have a cruiser 3 jumps out of the way. Do you get your cruiser or stay in your frigate?

Well if the system told you he was in a frigate you would be able to go directly and fight the guy off. But if you don't know this then you might go get your cruiser. Not only will that take some extra time but you won't get a fight because you overshipped and he will warp out.

If you show up in your frigate and he has a cruiser you will also not engage him. You will then have to go 14 jumps to get your cruiser.

I think ccp should make fw as conducive to pvp as possible. We are immortals at war with eachother. We should be getting in ships blowing them up and getting in new ships faster than the industrialists can produce them or we can afford them. Cost efficiency of your fits may actually start to play a role in the battles. CCP has been so bad about making a mechanic that yeilds fast and chaotic pvp thats its hard to know what strategies would actually work best. But however it would work if it will give allot of quality pvp it will be one of the the best things ccp ever did.

It's sort of the different side of how eve can be played now. Now allot of people sit there for hours with their expensive ships and alt scouts waiting to gank fish. They would still be able to do that in eve of course. But people who want to sign on and start shooting eachother will also have something in eve for them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815