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Micro-Siege Destroyer- The Minmatar Hedgehog
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2012-02-13 21:42:27 UTC
Ok, a lot of destroyer ideas have been punted around. Here is one I thought up.

It is a destroyer that enters a type of siege mode, in order to use bigger weapons.
For those wanting a quick summary:
Minmatar destroyer with no weapons while moving, but upon anchoring itself into a siege mode, can use big weapons and defenses in exchange for being immobile.

For variety, I gave the Minmatar a missile boat.

Micro-Siege Destroyer
Minmatar Hedgehog

Low Slots 3
Med Slots 4
High Slots 8

Launcher HardPoints 7
Fits Cruise launchers, only able to come online in siege mode.
Launchers are in standby mode when traveling, bypassing any issues beyond transferring to siege mode for bringing them online.

Siege mode transformation takes one minute, to enter or exit.

Special ability: In siege mode, the CPU increases from 200 to 700.
Powergrid increases from 70 MW to 9,500 MW

Cargo capacity 500

Armor: In siege mode, increases from 800 to 1,500
(Stored panels get positioned better for defense)
Resistances:
EM: 60%
Explosive: 10%
Kinetic: 25%
Thermal: 35%

Shield: In siege mode, increases from 700 to 7,000
(The powergrid comes online)
Resistances:
EM: 10%
Explosive: 50%
Kinetic: 40%
Thermal: 20%

Structure: in both modes 600

Maximum targeting range: 75,000M
Max locked targets 6

Propulsion (normal mode only) 200 m/sec
No drones

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#2 - 2012-02-13 21:44:27 UTC
Why?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2012-02-13 21:52:15 UTC
Tidurious wrote:
Why?


It is justified by the opportunities it creates, which did not previously exist:
It creates a ship for the destroyer crowd that enables limited PvP, ambush style.
The ship, as a probable T2 variant to the Thrasher, allows newer players to experiment with PvP, and older players to try new ideas and tactics with it.
It gives miners an easier ship to train for in order to have protection options, that can still deliver a solid punch.
It places a ship category for more creative fighting.

Plus:
It is awesome.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2012-02-13 22:18:12 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
*lots of words that amount to "it doesn't really do much of anything, but it sounds cool"*


None of those are actual reasons to add it, they pretty much restate a few times "It's different" without actually having any reason it should be in the game. "It is awesome" is a very bad reason to suggest adding something to the game (and besides that, it's subjective).

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later
...
when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road


I also doubt you understand the mechanics of lacking the fitting room for modules. Your proposal would require the user to sit there and online each of the guns one by one once it sieges, meaning that it would likely spend the entire siege cycle simply onlining all of its guns, lol.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2012-02-13 22:37:42 UTC
mxzf wrote:
None of those are actual reasons to add it, they pretty much restate a few times "It's different" without actually having any reason it should be in the game. "It is awesome" is a very bad reason to suggest adding something to the game (and besides that, it's subjective).

Actually, that last bit about being awesome was humor. Good stuff.
The actual idea list was above it.

And no new ship design actually fixes anything broken, outside of a gap in the ship lineup that players have an interest in seeing filled.
mxzf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later
...
when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road

I bet he understands humor too.

mxzf wrote:
I also doubt you understand the mechanics of lacking the fitting room for modules. Your proposal would require the user to sit there and online each of the guns one by one once it sieges, meaning that it would likely spend the entire siege cycle simply onlining all of its guns, lol.


Well, if you actually read it, you would have seen this:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Launcher HardPoints 7
Fits Cruise launchers, only able to come online in siege mode.
Launchers are in standby mode when traveling, bypassing any issues beyond transferring to siege mode for bringing them online.

They would not be offline in normal mode, they would be in standby.
When mounting them, the ship is considered docked with the higher set of stats active for this purpose.
Upon launching, they would be greyed out until the ship either sieged, or got in range of a ship or module that allowed modules to be swapped, in which case they would enter standby upon being mounted if not in siege mode.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-02-13 23:21:12 UTC
Exactly what is the advantage of flying this...thing over flying a battleship?
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2012-02-13 23:30:20 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tidurious wrote:
Why?


It is justified by the opportunities it creates, which did not previously exist:
It creates a ship for the destroyer crowd that enables limited PvP, ambush style.
The ship, as a probable T2 variant to the Thrasher, allows newer players to experiment with PvP, and older players to try new ideas and tactics with it.
It gives miners an easier ship to train for in order to have protection options, that can still deliver a solid punch.
It places a ship category for more creative fighting.

Plus:
It is awesome.

You left out:
Destroyers have been an obvious gap in the ship types, having only one T1 and T2 for each racial set.
The existing interdictor T2 variant demonstrates CCP sees the destroyer as a ship type that is meant to operate beyond it's limited size class, and affect a very wide range of ships with it's presence.

All other ship categories have multiple presences, and upon the introduction of the more recent battlecruiser varieties, the player base adopted the new versions with a hunger that bespeaks a desire for more variety left unfulfilled.

I have been wanting something cool for a destroyer, and the recent glass canon ships have shown CCP is trying to be more creative moving forward.

+1

PS: Would it work with smaller missiles in siege mode? Cruise is not quite a one size fits all kinda thing.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2012-02-13 23:51:46 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Exactly what is the advantage of flying this...thing over flying a battleship?

While it shares some combat characteristics with a BS while in siege mode, it loses them in exchange for heightened maneuverability when in normal mode.

It is still a smaller sig radius than a BS in siege mode, making it harder to target lock than a BS. This gives it an advantage in an ambush situation over a BS, which would be fighting a destroyer sized target. However, being immobile, it would have no transverse aspect to help it out defensively. Likely an even trade, but this ship was not meant to solo a BS easily.

If the BS has been prepped to fight smaller ships, or even had the foresight to equip a smartbomb, the fight could be very evenly matched at first.
(The weak armor and trivial structure would leave the Hedgehog in a bad spot if it's shield tank failed)

They could travel like a destroyer, and if equipped as a destroyer with smaller launchers, could become an interesting PvP item.
(Frigates and other destroyers would want to get out of range of the smaller missiles, and this ship could not chase them if in siege mode, but would have no defensive advantage in normal mode)

It would also be easier to transport, in an Orca or other type, having roughly the same size sets as the sabre.
(50km3 assembled, 5km3 packaged)

It would be about 2/3rd the price of a low end BS, if anything like it's interdictor cousin.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-14 07:23:42 UTC
I love the idea, but giving it the ability to also use Cruiser-Sized launchers would be nice. For example, Assault Launchers instead of Standard Launchers. They are faster and can hold more missiles (and use Light Missiles as ammunition), but their Powerfrid and CPU requirements make them only usable on Cruisers.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2012-02-14 14:35:21 UTC
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
I love the idea, but giving it the ability to also use Cruiser-Sized launchers would be nice. For example, Assault Launchers instead of Standard Launchers. They are faster and can hold more missiles (and use Light Missiles as ammunition), but their Powerfrid and CPU requirements make them only usable on Cruisers.

In theory, taking into account it cannot use these cruise launchers outside of siege mode, it can use anything below cruise launchers as well.

They will simply be in Stand-By mode if the powergrid / CPU cannot support them in normal mode.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2012-02-14 17:55:55 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
I love the idea, but giving it the ability to also use Cruiser-Sized launchers would be nice. For example, Assault Launchers instead of Standard Launchers. They are faster and can hold more missiles (and use Light Missiles as ammunition), but their Powerfrid and CPU requirements make them only usable on Cruisers.

In theory, taking into account it cannot use these cruise launchers outside of siege mode, it can use anything below cruise launchers as well.

They will simply be in Stand-By mode if the powergrid / CPU cannot support them in normal mode.


Ooo, more ways to use this new toy!

Want!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#12 - 2012-02-14 19:26:59 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Tidurious wrote:
Why?


It is justified by the opportunities it creates, which did not previously exist:
It creates a ship for the destroyer crowd that enables limited PvP, ambush style.
The ship, as a probable T2 variant to the Thrasher, allows newer players to experiment with PvP, and older players to try new ideas and tactics with it.
It gives miners an easier ship to train for in order to have protection options, that can still deliver a solid punch.
It places a ship category for more creative fighting.

Plus:
It is awesome.

You left out:
Destroyers have been an obvious gap in the ship types, having only one T1 and T2 for each racial set.
The existing interdictor T2 variant demonstrates CCP sees the destroyer as a ship type that is meant to operate beyond it's limited size class, and affect a very wide range of ships with it's presence.

All other ship categories have multiple presences, and upon the introduction of the more recent battlecruiser varieties, the player base adopted the new versions with a hunger that bespeaks a desire for more variety left unfulfilled.
.


You left out capitals and supers, that all have 1 single T1 hull with no T2 variants, or even hull variations.

Big ships need love too baby.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2012-02-14 21:03:29 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
You left out capitals and supers, that all have 1 single T1 hull with no T2 variants, or even hull variations.

Big ships need love too baby.

Definitely worth looking at.

I would endorse more ship variety for the big ships too!

Their is a lot of creative things these ships can be the centerpiece for.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#14 - 2012-02-14 21:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bearilian
very interesting. this would definately bring strategy that hasnt been used before, whether its effective or not though. reminds me of seige tanks in star craft.
-two criticisms; first the hull is probably way to small to even fit cruise missile launchers, as someone else mentioned. (so would only be able to fit a couple or so)
and I have a minor problem with a ship with a hull size of a destroyer having anysubstantial defence, even with seige mode active. there would have to be some new module, or techology introduced. something similar to concentrated defence bubble. maybe it could be a module that only fits on this ship. and initiates seige mode, by activating it.

also a question. you talk about its agility and speed, sig radius being its defense, while in "useless mode" (maybe some ewar i guess), so do you envision seige mode's "minute" countdown being slowly activated as it flies around full speed? or does it have to stop and sit still for that minute? the difference is fatal.

-a suggestion for having cruise missiles without actually having cruise missiles, would be have increadible damage increase to heavy missiles while seige mode is active. (maybe also change explosion velocity to be less effective against small ships)
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#15 - 2012-02-14 21:36:50 UTC
piloted sentry ships...
maybe one variation could have 3 or 4x optimum and fall off of normal destoryer weaponry. have a small fleet warp in 1 to 2 hundred km away and deploy siege (sentry) mode. (or would that be to cheap and to exploitable?)

-another side note; I believe you would have to add a stat to the fitting window, so that you can view what weapons can fit into the ships power grid/cpu capabilites. rather than having major bonuses to specific weaponry like tier 3 bc's do. instead, when you are putting weapons into the high slot, show the avalaible pg/cpu when seige mode is active. (because, like you suggested, the weapons are active, but in standby mode (not offline))

-It would probably work with just mimicking the tier 3 bc's, but i really like the idea of introducing this secondary "mode" that a ship can activate. with the intorduction to allowing ships to transition during flight, we are opening up possibilites that nobody has seen before in eve. If the changes are limited, and balanced into current mechanics we would not be destroying what eve is about, but just adding to the depth of strategy. (anyone who argues this, or asks "why", i will simply quote that last sentence, unless you directly respond to it)

-lastly these ships should not be cheap. they should be either high tiers or t2's.
CaleAdaire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#16 - 2012-02-14 21:48:04 UTC
Dude, believe it or not, CCP already implemented this. They created an entire group of ships that use larger weapons than their class counterparts, these ships can easily strike bigger ships, smaller ships can be alpha'ed by these ships but these ships are not invulnerable. The very best part? No "Micro-Siege Module" or anything complicated, just point and shoot. Maybe you should play some before suggesting changes.

Trust in God, Have Faith in Fusion.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-02-14 22:59:50 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Ok, a lot of destroyer ideas have been punted around. Here is one I thought up.

It is a destroyer that enters a type of siege mode, in order to use bigger weapons.
For those wanting a quick summary:
Minmatar destroyer with no weapons while moving, but upon anchoring itself into a siege mode, can use big weapons and defenses in exchange for being immobile.

For variety, I gave the Minmatar a missile boat.

Micro-Siege Destroyer
Minmatar Hedgehog

Low Slots 3
Med Slots 4
High Slots 8

Launcher HardPoints 7
Fits Cruise launchers, only able to come online in siege mode.
Launchers are in standby mode when traveling, bypassing any issues beyond transferring to siege mode for bringing them online.

Siege mode transformation takes one minute, to enter or exit.

Special ability: In siege mode, the CPU increases from 200 to 700.
Powergrid increases from 70 MW to 9,500 MW

Cargo capacity 500

Armor: In siege mode, increases from 800 to 1,500
(Stored panels get positioned better for defense)
Resistances:
EM: 60%
Explosive: 10%
Kinetic: 25%
Thermal: 35%

Shield: In siege mode, increases from 700 to 7,000
(The powergrid comes online)
Resistances:
EM: 10%
Explosive: 50%
Kinetic: 40%
Thermal: 20%

Structure: in both modes 600

Maximum targeting range: 75,000M
Max locked targets 6

Propulsion (normal mode only) 200 m/sec
No drones


I dont see a need for another class of destroyer, but if you must, why not make it comparable to modern day destroyers. Destroyers from what I udnerstand (I wasnt in the Navy so correct me if Im wrong) primary functions are escort and protection against smaller, faster warships and Submarine detection/destruction (stealthy ships).

Why not make a class of destroyers (T3) whos primary focus would be sniffing out cloaked ships? If could be the only ship class in the game to do so. Give it a 99% reduction in the ability to fit a stelth detection mod. Stealth detection Mod? What is that? I posted this a while ago:

Maybe this can help with the AFK cloakers (not that I have a problem with it, as I AFK cloak as well). Also, dont know if someone had this idea, if so, my bad.

Stealth Detection Scanner I (Module)
This module emits a pulse from ship that gives a chance to detect cloaked starships that may then be scanned down using probes. Base cycle time is 1 minute.

Prerequisites
-Electronics IV
-Cloaking III
-Signature Analysis IV
-Stealth Signature Analysis (new skill) -Skill at using Stealth Detection Scanner modules. Each rank increases pulse effective range by 5au, up to a maximum of 25au. In addition, each rank grants a 2 percent chance to detect stealth signatures, up to a maximum of 10 percent and increases accuracy by 6 percent per level up to a maximum of 30 percent.


Stealth Detection Scanner II (Module)

Prerequisites

-Electronics V
-Cloaking IV
-Signature Analysis V
-Stealth Signature Analysis V
-Advanced Stealth Signature Analysis (New Skill)
-Advanced understanding of Stealth technologies and principles. Each rank increase the effective pulse range by an additional 5au per level. In addition, reduces the base cycle time of Stealth Scanner module by 10 seconds per level. Also grants an additional 3 percent chance per level to detect stealth signatures.

As far as the ship goes, this new class of destroyer should have limited combat capabilities while the Mod is online, maybe 4 turret hardpoints. It should also have an insane sig radius while the mod is active and when active, the pulse signal should show up on overview becasue of the amount of energy being released. So a savvy, aware cloaked pilot can easily avoid detection, but someone AFK cloaked or someone in your null space not actively at the helm trying to shut down your system while he/she is at work can be easily located and destroyed.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#18 - 2012-02-15 04:21:34 UTC
CaleAdaire wrote:
Dude, believe it or not, CCP already implemented this. They created an entire group of ships that use larger weapons than their class counterparts, these ships can easily strike bigger ships, smaller ships can be alpha'ed by these ships but these ships are not invulnerable. The very best part? No "Micro-Siege Module" or anything complicated, just point and shoot. Maybe you should play some before suggesting changes.


its surprises me the level of limited creativity some of eve players have. and the retorts are pitifully prescripted. the sad part to me is that so many people lack the imagination to help further most ideas. they only have a habit of playing the game a certian way, and refuse to accept the idea that there would ever be a major change... like you said in your post, the "best part" of tier 3 bc's is they are not to complicated for you to fly. "just point and shoot" is that really all you can handle when it comes to playing games??? and then you tell us to play more before making suggestions and ideas in the "FEATURES AND IDEAS DISCUSSIONS????? you should look up what features and idea mean before simply coming into the forums and crying that everything is working the way you want it to and ccp should only make the changes that benefit your play style...

if there are MAJOR mechanical ballancing issues with the idea that the OP suggested, then you should outline them in detail. explain to the rest of us how it would effect fleet combat, solo combat and gang combat etc. be specific because if there is an actuall issue with the release of a ship concept, everyone involved will at least read it, and some of us (myself) included are not afraid to admit we were wrong if you can explain why. well my rant is over. thanks for reading Bear

-now to respond to what you wrote. no, there is nothing like this in the game. supers can perform something similar, but we are talking about the destroyer hull.. the second smallist ship size in the game! the suggestion i offered was just a tangent on the mother idea, and would introduce intrigue to combat.

I'll admit i have some unthought out ideas that would not work with the games mechanics. But I am in the right forum thread for comming up with ideas. and proposing changes. and suggesting fixes.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#19 - 2012-02-15 14:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Montevius Williams wrote:
Why not make a class of destroyers (T3) whos primary focus would be sniffing out cloaked ships? If could be the only ship class in the game to do so. Give it a 99% reduction in the ability to fit a stelth detection mod. Stealth detection Mod? What is that? I posted this a while ago:

Maybe this can help with the AFK cloakers (not that I have a problem with it, as I AFK cloak as well). Also, dont know if someone had this idea, if so, my bad.

It has already been suggested, by myself among others.

The problem with this, is that anything that goes against cloaking right now will unbalance the game, since cloaking is in a stalemate with local automatically publishing all pilot presences.
You cannot take anything away from cloaking, unless you also touch local with the same stick.

We have right now, a case of: "I know you are there, but I cannot find you"
(Absolute presence awareness countered by absolute location concealment)

You cannot change one side without the other, and still have balance.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2012-02-15 15:24:19 UTC
Bearilian wrote:
very interesting. this would definately bring strategy that hasnt been used before, whether its effective or not though. reminds me of seige tanks in star craft.
-two criticisms; first the hull is probably way to small to even fit cruise missile launchers, as someone else mentioned. (so would only be able to fit a couple or so)
and I have a minor problem with a ship with a hull size of a destroyer having anysubstantial defence, even with seige mode active. there would have to be some new module, or techology introduced. something similar to concentrated defence bubble. maybe it could be a module that only fits on this ship. and initiates seige mode, by activating it.

also a question. you talk about its agility and speed, sig radius being its defense, while in "useless mode" (maybe some ewar i guess), so do you envision seige mode's "minute" countdown being slowly activated as it flies around full speed? or does it have to stop and sit still for that minute? the difference is fatal.

-a suggestion for having cruise missiles without actually having cruise missiles, would be have increadible damage increase to heavy missiles while seige mode is active. (maybe also change explosion velocity to be less effective against small ships)

You have a good point regarding size issues, but I feel the game already addresses these in a similar context.
The difference that makes no difference, is no difference.

Actual cruise launchers as they are on battleships may be larger than typical destroyer weapons, but we already have ships smaller than a destroyer able to mount three even much larger torpedo launchers. (The Stealth Bomber class)
In other words, the size of the device itself is not an obstacle if the ship is designed around permitting their use.

That being said, you also pointed out the defensive aspect. I agree, a smaller ship cannot mount a battleship sized defense, and this one doesn't. It does, however, employ a shielding system comparable to one.
It's armor, while getting a boost in siege mode, (repositioned panels taking advantage of not needing engine access and navigational functionality), do not come close to BS levels.
It's structure gets no bonus at all. All reinforcing benefit is canceled by it's level of complexity and increased energy volatility.

It's shields, ahhh, there it was able to take full advantage of it's real innovation. They are BS class in defense.

The same technology recently advanced in BS research allowed a folding power core and computer core. The crushing let down was that the advances had no benefit to BS class ships beyond reducing their packaged sized, so was never implemented on them.
Later, scientists discovered that they could use the compression technology in order to allow partial usage of the power and CPU cores, but the output was at trivial levels needs to run a BS, more on the lines of a destroyer by comparison.

The first schematics for the Hedgehog were finished within the same day as this last discovery.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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