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Reason Why Removing Local would not fix the null botting.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#61 - 2012-02-06 20:11:53 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Metesurena wrote:
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets

no way, people are going to line up to rat in space far more dangerous then wormholes for income 10% higher then l4 missions


what about incursions?

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-02-06 20:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Nova Fox wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Metesurena wrote:
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets

no way, people are going to line up to rat in space far more dangerous then wormholes for income 10% higher then l4 missions


what about incursions?
I'm sure an incursion lobbyist will tell you of the danger of running incursions, hazards like not bringing enough logi ships but trying to run the mission anyway, or forgetting to fit hardeners on your billion-isk faction bs and warping into a site, or some villain flipping your loot can. Scary stuff that keeps null players PvEing where they are, and definitely not just moving alts over for 2-3x the income. Not when the risk I just described looms over their heads.

What we need is to punish null PvE even more, because the reason there are less and less ratter kills couldn't be because they're finding more profit elsewhere, right?
Hikaru Kuroda
Extheria
#63 - 2012-02-06 20:20:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan


Most of the time you'll be running cosmic anomalies (as in null), which don't require to probe. You can find them with the System Scanner even when you're cloaked.
Tian Nu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-02-06 20:21:06 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
if you removed local from 0.0 you will stuck many solo players from going to 0.0 again the chat give alot of intel to solo players ofc blobers well are blobers. If one day CCP remove local it will do alot of bad to EvE.


Where in the hell do you get this idea from? It's obvious that local gives far too much intel both to blob fleets and gankers in general, you'll be able to do far more in low sec and 0.0 space without the threat of having people searching for easy kills in their system just by glancing at the side of chat to see who's popping into their empty system. I guarantee you that removing the ability to see who's in local chat will for the most part chase gankers off because they'll either be too lazy to look for you with the scanners or they'll be too scared because they won't know whether you have friends with you or not.

Vertisce Soritenshi I stand corrected then, you make a fair point about bots, but I reckon that instead someone clever is just going to program a way for the bots to spam directional scanner everywhere and the moment they detect a ship they'll go back to their station.


what i do when i enter 0.0 first while on 60s cloack i tag bad standing to one or two players (if they is less that 10 in local) that give me alredy good pictures of what is in the sys (solo pvpers or gankers or blob). I wont go true what i do next but forcing me to warp from planet to planet to D scan (not to mention the range of d scan) is not going to make me enjoy the game. I probably never step in 0.0 again if there vas no local but hay i can still can flip so is ok if you guys belive is the right think to do to get rid of bots i ride whith you just dont cry if it bite you back.

Father O'Malley about Darius III begging for whelp: “Hows that working out for ya ? I make it 02:21 and all I see is you begging Riverini to get numbers and trying to recruit from the incursion public channel.”
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-02-06 20:22:31 UTC
So much debate from so many incorrect 'facts'.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#66 - 2012-02-06 20:22:54 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Metesurena wrote:
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets

no way, people are going to line up to rat in space far more dangerous then wormholes for income 10% higher then l4 missions


what about incursions?
I'm sure an incursion lobbyist will tell you of the danger of running incursions, hazards like not bringing enough logi ships but trying to run the mission anyway, or forgetting to fit hardeners on your billion-isk faction bs and warping into a site, or some villain flipping your loot can. Scary stuff that keeps null players PvEing where they are, and definitely not just moving alts over for 2-3x the income. Not when the risk I just described looms over their heads.


Brick Squad is going around trying to kill the sansha carriers so they close out the incursions.

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#67 - 2012-02-06 20:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Hauling Hal wrote:
So much debate from so many incorrect 'facts'.


you could start stating facts.

As another scary aspect with the website update around the corner is the bot using that as intel tools as well Im sure if you made a script smart enough you can track everyship signature in new eden (though I am sure high sec would be the hardest to count for ship volume) that can only go about gate traveling using doltan maps. espeically lower traffic areas such as null.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#68 - 2012-02-06 20:40:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Nova Fox wrote:
Brick Squad is going around trying to kill the sansha carriers so they close out the incursions.

Yep, no risk from rats and no rewards.
Nova Fox wrote:
However with 8 probes it be very hard to have full system coverage.
Probes show up on the hunters dscanners at first if the bots are stupid and abandon the probes there.
The hunter would then liklely know the system is occupied with bot ratters if the probes are a bit thick on coverage and no ships are on his scans.
Knowing how intel channels work, pretty sure any system with a large group of blues will make sure to spam their probes everywhere.

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David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-02-06 20:46:51 UTC
d-scan should be turned into an inbuilt active module on all ships... once activated it pulses out a scan every 10 seconds

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-02-06 21:15:27 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
if you removed local from 0.0 you will stuck many solo players from going to 0.0 again the chat give alot of intel to solo players ofc blobers well are blobers. If one day CCP remove local it will do alot of bad to EvE.


Where in the hell do you get this idea from? It's obvious that local gives far too much intel both to blob fleets and gankers in general, you'll be able to do far more in low sec and 0.0 space without the threat of having people searching for easy kills in their system just by glancing at the side of chat to see who's popping into their empty system. I guarantee you that removing the ability to see who's in local chat will for the most part chase gankers off because they'll either be too lazy to look for you with the scanners or they'll be too scared because they won't know whether you have friends with you or not.

Vertisce Soritenshi I stand corrected then, you make a fair point about bots, but I reckon that instead someone clever is just going to program a way for the bots to spam directional scanner everywhere and the moment they detect a ship they'll go back to their station.


Oh I absolutely agree that the botters will just find another way. That is a given. But in the meantime why not make it just that much harder for them?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Ehn Roh
#71 - 2012-02-06 23:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ehn Roh
Razin wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again.

That is all.

It's pretty clear the the current d-scan needs to be reworked for delayed local. This is stated in pretty much every topic advocating delayed local.

For example, my preference for the new d-scan would be to have the auto passive and the manual active modes (with some range and detectability tradeoffs for both), where the liberal use of the active scanner would tun your ship into a warpable signature.


This would require a bit more understanding of sensor-ey things than CCP seems to have shown to date. But that's on the right track, as unlikely as I think it is to happen.

A sensor and EWAR model that made sense would make most of these problems go away, plus a whole raft of other ones.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#72 - 2012-02-07 00:24:08 UTC
Either way it seems the concensus is we need to relook at how we find each other in space or try not to be found probably from ground up.

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-02-07 00:55:32 UTC
Why not fight fire with fire? CCP use thin clients to always have a random duplicated real pilot who is currently logged in. Have random number of thin clients with random times, but always having at least one always logged in.

Granted this will most likely keep the real pilots too scared to undock without a 100% blue local too, but if that's the case they don't belong outside of highsec anyways. This is not a fix, but something temporary till a better one can be found.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#74 - 2012-02-07 01:19:55 UTC
NPC traffic?

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-02-07 01:43:18 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
NPC traffic?


More like fake player traffic. As in only CCP and the player being duplicated know better. Bring on the bot owner tears.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#76 - 2012-02-07 01:48:23 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
NPC traffic?


More like fake player traffic. As in only CCP and the player being duplicated know better. Bring on the bot owner tears.


Be funny if they started to recycle all the unused alts names or everyone thats ever been biomassed. :P thought its more a of a server load issue I guess as you really cant have a fake player you need a phsyical presence of some sort. Dunno make yatchs or something that cannot be fired on for these guys.

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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#77 - 2012-02-07 01:54:53 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again.

That is all.

edit
I guess its not all

1 I am not advodacting against the removal of local just trying to counter one argument for local removal. Its neary stupid to remove a 'feature' because of botting alone. reworked local for null would bring in a new level of thinking to null but it be much better if it brought a new level of stratagey.

2 I agree D-Scan needs to be fixed severly possibly made funner or infinitely much more useful.

edit 2
for those not wanting to read the whole thread

D-Scan of course doesnt tell hostiles from freindlies, however proves that bots are more than capable of counting +1 to scan and then set panic mode. Where as you may forget to hit dscan before transition cloaking (to prevent from getting nailed yourself) and may not catch anything in local when they cloak up.


The entirety of your post makes no sense.

It doesn't matter what happens with D-Scan. A cloaked ship can't be detected, regardless of how fast you scan. The issue is LOCAL, and showing up in it, not showing up on D-Scan. Furthermore, if you show up on D-Scan because you're warping in on a target and the bot cloaks, it's already too late. They're dead at that point if they immediately cloak up where they are.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#78 - 2012-02-07 05:50:54 UTC
Hikaru Kuroda wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan


Most of the time you'll be running cosmic anomalies (as in null), which don't require to probe. You can find them with the System Scanner even when you're cloaked.


I was under the impression most people ran Combat Sites (the probe required kind) in WH space. But it's been a while since I've been out there.

Thanks for clearing me up on that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#79 - 2012-02-07 06:35:50 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again.

That is all.

edit
I guess its not all

1 I am not advodacting against the removal of local just trying to counter one argument for local removal. Its neary stupid to remove a 'feature' because of botting alone. reworked local for null would bring in a new level of thinking to null but it be much better if it brought a new level of stratagey.

2 I agree D-Scan needs to be fixed severly possibly made funner or infinitely much more useful.

edit 2
for those not wanting to read the whole thread

D-Scan of course doesnt tell hostiles from freindlies, however proves that bots are more than capable of counting +1 to scan and then set panic mode. Where as you may forget to hit dscan before transition cloaking (to prevent from getting nailed yourself) and may not catch anything in local when they cloak up.


The entirety of your post makes no sense.

It doesn't matter what happens with D-Scan. A cloaked ship can't be detected, regardless of how fast you scan. The issue is LOCAL, and showing up in it, not showing up on D-Scan. Furthermore, if you show up on D-Scan because you're warping in on a target and the bot cloaks, it's already too late. They're dead at that point if they immediately cloak up where they are.


read thread.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-02-07 07:04:44 UTC
you know dudes are mad as hell when....