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Reason Why Removing Local would not fix the null botting.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#41 - 2012-02-06 19:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Corina Jarr wrote:
Didn't bother reading anything other than the OP, but...

1) dscan doesn't tell you when a cloaked ship is 10km from you

2) dscan doesn't tell you if the ship warping to you is firendly



Removing local won't kill the bots (other than shortly afterwards when they need to be redone), but it will make them supremely easier to kill.


It was establised that the bots dont have to register as freindly it only has to register +1 descan results because of that vunerable transition period for that umph of a seconds you are recloaking up at the gate.

Also inversly if the number of established bots goes down by -1 then it would and should go into panic mode again.

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Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-02-06 19:19:59 UTC
removing local not only is a stupid solution but also very easy to get around. Scan probes will be deployed by Bots easy. It would be like having local. Its actually easy to implement. Not to mention gate activation, which i am sure can also be done.
Count Spank
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-02-06 19:21:02 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Hi,

Can I just join in and call everyone dumb in this thread. I feel so excluded.



Indeed, you are excluded. That is your position here.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#44 - 2012-02-06 19:30:57 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
removing local not only is a stupid solution but also very easy to get around. Scan probes will be deployed by Bots easy. It would be like having local. Its actually easy to implement. Not to mention gate activation, which i am sure can also be done.


Yeah gate activation makes an audible noise just having a afk velator would give the bots an advanced warning to cloak up before even the inbound hunter has a chance to throw a dscan out.

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Valei Khurelem
#45 - 2012-02-06 19:33:24 UTC
Removing null has nothing to do with bots, I don't know where you got this idea from, what it would fix quite a lot is ganking because it would force the lazy EVE PvPers to actually have to look for you in the system rather than just go "Oh look! Someone just jumped in! Let's get those bubbles up so he can't go anywhere!".

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-02-06 19:40:51 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Removing null has nothing to do with bots, I don't know where you got this idea from, what it would fix quite a lot is ganking because it would force the lazy EVE PvPers to actually have to look for you in the system rather than just go "Oh look! Someone just jumped in! Let's get those bubbles up so he can't go anywhere!".

It was brought up in another thread a while back that removing local would deter bots since pretty much every bot program currently relies on local and the intel gathered from local to flee to safety when someone comes in system. The idea being that if local were to be removed it would be much easier for legit players to get the jump on and kill bots. This would still be the case even if bots spammed the D-Scan as D-Scan (you would know this if you ever used it) can only be used once every 5 seconds or so. Unless said bots were constantly aligned out to a safe this would make it much easier to get in and tackle bots for the kill.

As it stands the best chance to capture a bot is to put bubbles around it's safe POS and leave system. Come back in a couple minutes later and hope you get lucky with your little trap.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Metesurena
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-02-06 19:47:08 UTC
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#48 - 2012-02-06 19:47:23 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Removing null has nothing to do with bots, I don't know where you got this idea from, what it would fix quite a lot is ganking because it would force the lazy EVE PvPers to actually have to look for you in the system rather than just go "Oh look! Someone just jumped in! Let's get those bubbles up so he can't go anywhere!".

It was brought up in another thread a while back that removing local would deter bots since pretty much every bot program currently relies on local and the intel gathered from local to flee to safety when someone comes in system. The idea being that if local were to be removed it would be much easier for legit players to get the jump on and kill bots. This would still be the case even if bots spammed the D-Scan as D-Scan (you would know this if you ever used it) can only be used once every 5 seconds or so. Unless said bots were constantly aligned out to a safe this would make it much easier to get in and tackle bots for the kill.

As it stands the best chance to capture a bot is to put bubbles around it's safe POS and leave system. Come back in a couple minutes later and hope you get lucky with your little trap.


So with 100 bots it would be one dscan every 0.05 of a second if you stagger the cycles out.

And being honest, no I never had to spam d-scan, I only uesd it to check gates before I warp to them as some camps are particiularlly nasty to get though if they're expecting you.

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#49 - 2012-02-06 19:49:55 UTC
Metesurena wrote:
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets


In a counter attack pvp ship you can back hand most cloaking ships fairly easily, even the stealth bomber is all bite and no skin. As long as you keep your ship cheaper than thiers you should come out on top of the war of attrition.

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Ilany
Nightingale Enterprises
#50 - 2012-02-06 19:51:04 UTC
Forgive my ignorance, but how does a bot spam the D-scan faster than the fixed limit? I'm not saying the limit on (or the range of)the D-scan is correct - higher would be better - but it's certainly not 100ths of a second.

And how does an NPC-ratting bot cloak if it is ratting?

And why are people saying removing local has nothing to do it? Bots have used local (or the feed that supports it) for at least 7 years. It would be easy to kill bots by cloaking up in the system and waiting at a belt if they didn't have something telling them someone was in the system with them.

And finally how will this affect the forum bots that post crap in every thread?
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-02-06 19:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Nova Fox wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Removing null has nothing to do with bots, I don't know where you got this idea from, what it would fix quite a lot is ganking because it would force the lazy EVE PvPers to actually have to look for you in the system rather than just go "Oh look! Someone just jumped in! Let's get those bubbles up so he can't go anywhere!".

It was brought up in another thread a while back that removing local would deter bots since pretty much every bot program currently relies on local and the intel gathered from local to flee to safety when someone comes in system. The idea being that if local were to be removed it would be much easier for legit players to get the jump on and kill bots. This would still be the case even if bots spammed the D-Scan as D-Scan (you would know this if you ever used it) can only be used once every 5 seconds or so. Unless said bots were constantly aligned out to a safe this would make it much easier to get in and tackle bots for the kill.

As it stands the best chance to capture a bot is to put bubbles around it's safe POS and leave system. Come back in a couple minutes later and hope you get lucky with your little trap.


So with 100 bots it would be one dscan every 0.05 of a second if you stagger the cycles out.

And being honest, no I never had to spam d-scan, I only uesd it to check gates before I warp to them as some camps are particiularlly nasty to get though if they're expecting you.


You are also forgetting that D-Scan only goes so far out. If you are out of that range they can't D-Scan you. If they scan you while you are already in warp to them...well...assuming they are using a BS to rat in it is likely too little to late. Especially if you are cloaked...

I am sorry...what I am explaining just seems so obvious. Why is it so hard to understand? Why is there a need for this to be explained at all?

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Tian Nu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-02-06 19:53:05 UTC
if you removed local from 0.0 you will stuck many solo players from going to 0.0 again the chat give alot of intel to solo players ofc blobers well are blobers. If one day CCP remove local it will do alot of bad to EvE.

Father O'Malley about Darius III begging for whelp: “Hows that working out for ya ? I make it 02:21 and all I see is you begging Riverini to get numbers and trying to recruit from the incursion public channel.”
Valei Khurelem
#53 - 2012-02-06 19:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
if you removed local from 0.0 you will stuck many solo players from going to 0.0 again the chat give alot of intel to solo players ofc blobers well are blobers. If one day CCP remove local it will do alot of bad to EvE.


Where in the hell do you get this idea from? It's obvious that local gives far too much intel both to blob fleets and gankers in general, you'll be able to do far more in low sec and 0.0 space without the threat of having people searching for easy kills in their system just by glancing at the side of chat to see who's popping into their empty system. I guarantee you that removing the ability to see who's in local chat will for the most part chase gankers off because they'll either be too lazy to look for you with the scanners or they'll be too scared because they won't know whether you have friends with you or not.

Vertisce Soritenshi I stand corrected then, you make a fair point about bots, but I reckon that instead someone clever is just going to program a way for the bots to spam directional scanner everywhere and the moment they detect a ship they'll go back to their station.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#54 - 2012-02-06 20:01:40 UTC
Ilany wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but how does a bot spam the D-scan faster than the fixed limit? I'm not saying the limit on (or the range of)the D-scan is correct - higher would be better - but it's certainly not 100ths of a second.

And how does an NPC-ratting bot cloak if it is ratting?

And why are people saying removing local has nothing to do it? Bots have used local (or the feed that supports it) for at least 7 years. It would be easy to kill bots by cloaking up in the system and waiting at a belt if they didn't have something telling them someone was in the system with them.

And finally how will this affect the forum bots that post crap in every thread?


You network the bots together to put it plainly, thought its very likely it will pita to get a clock they can all count on to script and sequence thie dscans then talk to each other out of the game (hell ingame have the bot that finds something spam fleet channel) the resource of 5 multiplies 100 times over which is a bit large for a ratting bot fleet in null but they do get that larget according to more recent reports last Ive seen them was 30 strong about.

Ask the null bot hunters for specifics on how these bots do it. Most of the time I hear they get mostly fustrated by the time they arrive the bots are gone and cloaked and/or safed somehwere behind a deathstar pos.

I am advodcating that removing local could potentially make the problem worse. However... it may give ccp an edge of finding these days as I am sure spamming dscan is going to lag out the system every 5% a second. Which doesnt say much for our paranoid human playes who refresh d-scan more often that I care to do.

What I am really surpised is as many numbers they have now why havent we seen them primary things to death? They're probably afraid of the jump portal or cynos.

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#55 - 2012-02-06 20:03:04 UTC
Tian Nu wrote:
if you removed local from 0.0 you will stuck many solo players from going to 0.0 again the chat give alot of intel to solo players ofc blobers well are blobers. If one day CCP remove local it will do alot of bad to EvE.


Hmm no. if you said this about low sec I be more inclined to belive you.

However local with no intel replacement would be bad for player empires in general having a very weak idea of who is moving where and when without having to recuit a several dozen sit here and press this button people.

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Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-02-06 20:04:45 UTC
D-Scan is only effective up to 21 AU give or take for most ships. In larger null-sec systems, there are areas that are 70 AU apart.

So if you are say, in a big fat miner and you see a few ships suddenly appear on your scanner, you have maybe 5 seconds at best to align and warp out.

In an area without local, the only way to truly know what you are dealing with in a system is to have a designated scanning ship.

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#57 - 2012-02-06 20:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
D-Scan is only effective up to 21 AU give or take for most ships. In larger null-sec systems, there are areas that are 70 AU apart.

So if you are say, in a big fat miner and you see a few ships suddenly appear on your scanner, you have maybe 5 seconds at best to align and warp out.

In an area without local, the only way to truly know what you are dealing with in a system is to have a designated scanning ship.


Which is entirely possible, somone proved some time ago that bots are able to scan down sites as well which is rather distrubing becuase the amount of visual feed involved and some though process has to be made about the resulting in scan results.

However with 8 probes it be very hard to have full system coverage.
Probes show up on the hunters dscanners at first if the bots are stupid and abandon the probes there.
The hunter would then liklely know the system is occupied with bot ratters if the probes are a bit thick on coverage and no ships are on his scans.

Either way this is all a big if as well considering we have no idea how ccp is going to get rid of local and what to compensate with.

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Ilany
Nightingale Enterprises
#58 - 2012-02-06 20:08:34 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:

You network the bots together to put it plainly, thought its very likely it will pita to get a clock they can all count on to script and sequence thie dscans then talk to each other out of the game (hell ingame have the bot that finds something spam fleet channel) the resource of 5 multiplies 100 times over which is a bit large for a ratting bot fleet in null but they do get that larget according to more recent reports last Ive seen them was 30 strong about.


Yikes. That many? Is it even economical? (I guess it must be if they do it, but even so.) Ugh

Nova Fox wrote:
Ask the null bot hunters for specifics on how these bots do it. Most of the time I hear they get mostly fustrated by the time they arrive the bots are gone and cloaked and/or safed somehwere behind a deathstar pos.


Okay, that was in response to your original post. I was imagining bots trying to cloak in situ with rats locking on to them etc.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#59 - 2012-02-06 20:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Ilany wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:

You network the bots together to put it plainly, thought its very likely it will pita to get a clock they can all count on to script and sequence thie dscans then talk to each other out of the game (hell ingame have the bot that finds something spam fleet channel) the resource of 5 multiplies 100 times over which is a bit large for a ratting bot fleet in null but they do get that larget according to more recent reports last Ive seen them was 30 strong about.


Yikes. That many? Is it even economical? (I guess it must be if they do it, but even so.) Ugh

Nova Fox wrote:
Ask the null bot hunters for specifics on how these bots do it. Most of the time I hear they get mostly fustrated by the time they arrive the bots are gone and cloaked and/or safed somehwere behind a deathstar pos.


Okay, that was in response to your original post. I was imagining bots trying to cloak in situ with rats locking on to them etc.


Hmm understandable its okay to ask questions we all get to learn something. Im no expert myself but I do understand that local getting removed may make things harder, more typically finding where the botters are if ccp decides they need to get rid of other free intel tools like map statistics.

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-02-06 20:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Metesurena wrote:
If it goes thru, youll make more isk camping ratting systems in cloakers than actually ratting until every1 figures out its no longer worth it and go make missions/incursions into hisec.

Then you can join your lowsec brosefs and start complaining about lack of targets

no way, people are going to line up to rat in space far more dangerous then wormholes for income 10-20% higher then l4 missions

the pile of guys drooling to take up such an irresistable offer is going to really revitalize null