Missions & Complexes

Funny, i've been saying this for year or I had been until I quit a while back. Torps on bombers works out great, everywhere else it's varying degrees of not-so-good. I always felt the golem highlighted this problem by becoming the insane target-painter juggling behemoth that it is today. Caldari and missile launchers in general have a lot of these issues dragging them down.

Hate to say this... but you do HAVE to switch to barrage. A maelstrom with barrage loaded and 3 TE/TC's gets an optimal of 8.5+69, meaning it does 80% of its dps at 43.5km. Before you say anything about the golem hitting at 45km using t1 ammo, note that the abaddon ALSO has to switch to t2 ammo (scorch) to hit 45km, and if you were for some reason to boost its optimal as much as possible multifrequency's range only hits 21+19km. So with pure t1 ammo loaded, the golem still does the most dps out to its maximum range, and when sticking t2 ammo in still does more dps out to its maximum range. Of course, applying the dps is a different story, and there is how the other gunboats still do SOME damage in falloff, but I think we have already covered that earlier in this argument.



I don't know WHAT you are smoking, but apparently it is really, really good. Now, 800dps at long range sounds nice. Until you actually look at that fit you posted. To hit 800dps, you have to have fury cruise missiles loaded. Which means that except against guristas, you are never hitting for full damage with the cruise missiles. Then you are looking at how excessively EXPENSIVE that fit is. How much isk did you dump down the drain for that? The CN BCU's were hitting close to 100mil apiece last time I looked at them (admittedly, a few months ago, but still), the CN invulns are what? 400mil a pop? Has that price gone down significantly yet? The MWD runs for another 400ish mil, and I have no clue about the NOS. Plus you have t2 purger rigs on it.

Now, lets compare that to some of the other ships being mentioned.

The Golem:
with pure t2 fit, torps will hit 787 torp dps at 60km, 1005 with CN torps. Thats without counting drone DPS. It does have problems applying that dps, so I'll call that one a wash (except to AGAIN note that is a pure T2 fit, there is plenty of room for improvement with faction/etc.)

The Vargur:
With pure t2 fit, using EMP L it does 763 gun dps. 700 with barrage. 980 with hail. And you still have the drones to add to the dps figures. 80% dps is applied at 45km, (60 w/ barrage), meaning that at the optimal of all batteships in lvl 4's, its still doing 610dps w/ EMP, 784 w/ hail, and 560 w/ barrage. So when you load hail, before counting drones or faction equipment, it is almost matching the dps at range of your rattlesnake. While you can still move closer to targets to apply more dps, or add faction/complex gear to apply more dps, or just count the drones for more dps.

The Mach:
Its the vargur, but better - I don't have time to go into detail

-Arazel

Are you trolling? My mach does nearly 1400 DPS w/drones and 1250ish with guns alone. No way a rattlesnake is faster at mission running than a well fitted/skilled Mach.

Your mach may max out dmg at 1400 but it doesn't do 1400.

The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.

You're going to have to re-deploy drones and change missile types to actually apply anywhere near full damage on anything. You're knocking falloff as some kind of huge problem, yet you've apparently missed the fact cruise missiles apply even less than falloff'd turrets unless you're packing a lot of painters (your fit has none and you're assuming RAGE cruise numbers to boot). You spend that much on any other ship and I assure you it will omnitank any mission aswell. Jamming is a joke for any ship pilot competent enough to slot an eccm for the 3-4 mission total where it is an issue.

The one strength of your rattlesnake is that nobody bothers ganking them, but assuming more people get wind of that bat-****-insane fit you've been posting here that might change.

The rattlesnake is not terrible, but making it out to be some kind of untested uber-ship is a bit rich, and your fit is actually much worse than a good, active tanked, snake.

The change missle types and drones does not happen. You know the type of mission you are going into and you only apply the one set of drones that apply to that mission type. Your missles are loaded before the mission and between rooms since most dps is drones and your not wasting vollies.

Cruise missles will apply full damage to large ships. (( they are only worse then falloff/tracking with smaller ships for the most part atleast when using rage, nice to have the option to drop to can hit anything ammo which guns won't do, and a little dps is better then none )) They don't need to attack the small ships since the drones are popping them all. That is the big benifit of all drone boats. That is why thier max dps looks a bit lower then all other ships.
I use 2 implants to improve the missles further. Less explosion radius and faster explosion speed. These allow them to be decently effective even on cruisers without switching down to precision on the rare chance they are even needed.

Yes you can use a eccm for just this mission or that mission but this ship doesn't need it. RS already is hardest bs to jam. It's still not as good as having an eccm but why bother when your drones keep firing away even while your jamed. Just use f.o.f's till you clear up the jammers and your dps drop is very little.

By omni tank I mean you never change the fit. Ever. You buy it, fit it, and forget it. Don't bring extra pieces for this or that kind of mission just play.

If you really hate the rage missles you can always pay for faciton missles.
They are cheap for this ship since it only use 4 per volley but I do recommend using faction launchers if you do that.

Most I do is change ammo. I never change the fit on my mach. I have 2 omni non-faction invulns and one deadspace shield booster and I am adequately tanked against everything, because I know how to do missions properly.

Also, I never release drones, so let's ignore my drones for the purpose of this comparison. Let us continue to compare your RS (with sentries) with my mach without drones. Without drones my mach with all V's does 1083 eft dps. That only drops below 800dps when the target is further than 48km. These numbers are also without implants, and I suspect your crazy 800 dps etc are all with implants. Whatever.


No, a good portion of your damage is in your cruise missiles, which take forever to hit. Mach guns are instant.

When I warp into a mission, I insta pop frigs with 1 alpha up to 70km range. I three (occasionally two or four) shot cruisers at 60km range. By this time all the BS are much closer than the 48km threshold where the mach starts doing more dps than your rattlesnake. Your rattlesnake can't do ANY of this. Your cruise missiles (especially furies, lol) are next to useless on most of these ships, so a good chunk of your 'consistent 800 dps' is wasted.

Tracking in missions is close to ignorable since all the rats are flying straight towards you and die before their transversal has a chance to build up.

Your rattlesnake is incredibly slow, even with an MWD on it. You simply cannot compare its speed to a mach.

And lastly, my fit's total cost is about 1.3b including hull. I'm not even going to bother calculating your RS fit's price.

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A few extra notes: very few missions start with rats further than 80km away. The only one I can think of right now that does this is the Score. Your cruise missiles may be able to hit up to 92km but that's pointless. Additionally, I'll admit I don't know too much about how sentry dps works but I'm pretty sure they don't do full damage up to 90km away, lol.

Well to be fair Scorch also gets used quite a lot on puls setups in pve, I even like conflag a lot.

The OP is actually pretty much on the spot, the golem is the most micro heavy of the marauders(especially hard to play up to max performance if you also try to loot on the fly). I also would agree that the main problem might be more torpedos itself(and TP cycle time) than the golem.

Ireland VonVicious,
Can you create a separate thread for your Rattlesnake setup so the community can give it a proper discussion/critique? The fit is interesting in that pumps out DPS while still managing to keep the passive tank that the Rattlesnake is famous for, but it's not really relevant to this discussion in that a technical debate about its applied DPS and whatnot will derail this thread unnecessarily.

So, basically your two imps beat my 2x Rigor II's, 1x flare , my RF TP and my 3% Exploradius/velocity when it comes down to dmg application on cruisers? Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers, and 1/3 against non-elite cruisers. I can't hit angel BS's for full dmg with fury's either... Stop posting faked facts please.

The whole problem with the Golem is infact the dmg application from torps/cruise missiles. It's just ****** as hell. Dmg range is hilarious too (hi@42km without T2, lol). Either buff torps directly, or give a usefull bonus to dmg application to the Golem instead.