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Reason Why Removing Local would not fix the null botting.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#21 - 2012-02-06 15:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant.

I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots.

Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha t one instance you pop up on overview, boom they're gone.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Razin
The Scope
#22 - 2012-02-06 15:14:43 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant.

I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots.

Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone.
IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#23 - 2012-02-06 15:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Razin wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant.

I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots.

Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone.
IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented.


Agreed but if they keep it the same, the status quo is almost not going to change that much. And killing one of them isnt going to do much to stop them as on person stated, say hi to my bomber and Im like dude you need an entire wing of bombers and chances are not all of the bots are in the same area.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
seany1212
M Y S T
#24 - 2012-02-06 15:41:20 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Razin wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot bot programmer and let my bots do something a person cant.

I have 100 bots and I sync them to dscan one ship every 1/100th of a second from the next one and have them setup to talk to each other. The moment one of them sees +1 more ship than them theyll cloak up. Only thing a bot needs to do is count dscan results not much different from current bots.

Now you might be smart enough to smash dscan as soon as you jump in and before you decloak/recloak to go hunting but in tha tone instance boom they're gone.
IMO your mistake is in looking for a flaw in the current d-scan that works with current local. Granted, CCP is known for taking the easy way out (see WTZ); however there is hope that d-scan gets some severe updates if and when delayed local is implemented.


Agreed but if they keep it the same, the status quo is almost not going to change that much. And killing one of them isnt going to do much to stop them as on person stated, say hi to my bomber and Im like dude you need an entire wing of bombers and chances are not all of the bots are in the same area.


Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course P
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-02-06 15:45:23 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course P


it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security

but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
seany1212
M Y S T
#26 - 2012-02-06 15:53:01 UTC
Andski wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course P


it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security

but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters


Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all Roll
Serene Repose
#27 - 2012-02-06 15:59:33 UTC
Reason why people want local removed....so you can't SEE them.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-02-06 16:40:57 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Andski wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course P


it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security

but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters


Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all Roll


instant local is a two-way street

nobody uses cloaky nullified t3s to rat

cripes stop being dumb

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#29 - 2012-02-06 16:54:43 UTC
Andski wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Andski wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Except the bots are never going to know when you left, or if you logged, or if you jumped an alt in then logged, or whether they should log back in if they logged off. You can come up with a million counters, or counter-counters but the cloak will be the number 1 thing cried about if local went. I hope it goes go, null has it on easy mode for any alliance that has enough space and enough members to patrol and fill it. With the exception of wars of course P


it's almost like an alliance and its members work to achieve this level of security

but no let's throw away all of that because a few guys can't figure out ways to kill ratters


Instant local, cloaks and nullifier t3s, its almost like you dont need to be at the keyboard to rat at all Roll


instant local is a two-way street

nobody uses cloaky nullified t3s to rat

cripes stop being dumb


are bots people too?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-02-06 17:20:27 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
are bots people too?


that's one hell of an existential question

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#31 - 2012-02-06 17:24:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
are bots people too?


that's one hell of an existential question


I know, I mean is it right to call them nobody? or its just the limits of thier natures to exist as such? One must ponder more about it.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#32 - 2012-02-06 17:32:51 UTC
Hi,

Can I just join in and call everyone dumb in this thread. I feel so excluded.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#33 - 2012-02-06 17:38:26 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Hi,

Can I just join in and call everyone dumb in this thread. I feel so excluded.


Yes you may.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jhan Niber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-02-06 17:54:05 UTC
I am not aware of bots being able to communicate amongst themselves. As far as I know they operate independently of each other. Even if the bots do become capable of communicating with each other to develop a system wide D-scan, they still can't keep track of ships with cloaking devices.

I was going to write a long explanation of the various ways that no local would make botting much more difficult, but I'll just go ahead and point out that there's a reason you don't find bots in W-space.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#35 - 2012-02-06 18:08:01 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Okay lets go hypothetical and I am not an idiot

That's really pushing the boundaries of reasonable hypothesis.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Spurty
#36 - 2012-02-06 18:09:14 UTC
ROLLS EYES ACROSS THE TABLE

So many Assumptions, so few working prototypes and proofs.


There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#37 - 2012-02-06 18:16:31 UTC
Not like a stealth bomber could ever warp in cloaked and lock right after decloak Big smile
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#38 - 2012-02-06 18:30:15 UTC
I suppose then that if the server detects a scan initialization at the same time other inputs occur, meaning that if say F1 is clicked only mere moments a scan is initiated, that could be a reason for investigation.

Of course players with thousands of NPC kills in null and null systems full of NPC deaths that drop the moment someone AFK cloaks there should also be a cause for investigation.

Existing stats would work.

But organized crime will probably take revenge if CCP actually did anything about botting. We don't want some poor pony losing his head, do we?


Botting will end when the game is dead, or the kind of people who purchase RMT are weeded out hopefully by some global disaster - being the kind of people who RMT are probably a bane on the world in other RL aspects and such a mentality that does not easily survive disasters, wars, zombie apocs, etc.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#39 - 2012-02-06 19:04:20 UTC
Spurty wrote:
ROLLS EYES ACROSS THE TABLE

So many Assumptions, so few working prototypes and proofs.




And you think having bots talk to each other is a technnological imposisbility? Software is capable of doing alot of things the programmers tell it to do.

Bots are mostly AI scripts put together to THEN interact with a client. There does come a point where bots may be utterly confused about how to play a game but with time and investment you can make a near player like bot easily enough and script him to have an entire week scheduled. If you dont belive me then you need to take a look on how Halo's AI operate, and how obiliviion and skyrim schedules thier npcs.

Also It be horrible if whoever ever built these bots how to analyze a pvp situation and engage a hostile player especially if you show up in one bomber and they have 8 officer fitted and jacked piloted tengus.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#40 - 2012-02-06 19:10:15 UTC
Didn't bother reading anything other than the OP, but...

1) dscan doesn't tell you when a cloaked ship is 10km from you

2) dscan doesn't tell you if the ship warping to you is firendly



Removing local won't kill the bots (other than shortly afterwards when they need to be redone), but it will make them supremely easier to kill.