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CSM for High Sec? Isnt April the first a few months away?
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-02-03 10:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Danfen Fenix wrote:

As a new player, I'm interested in hearing how you propose NPC corps be disbanded, and what system would take their place? I havnt played too long so far myself (just over a month), so I have no long term experience, but I have already been part of one hi-sec corp that was wardecced and so I left. Why did I leave? Because, at just 2 weeks old, I was not interested in PVP and did not want it forced on me while I was happy doing my own thing in hi-sec. If I was told that now that I am in a war, there was no way to leave it unless the corp leaders made an agreement, then I would have left EVE straight off as I would then be forced in to an activity I did not want to do (last I checked, EVE is marketted as a sandbox, if i'm not mistaken? Not a PVP only MMO).

Not saying I am against PVP, I have actually moved in to Null now (albiet Providence) and am looking at moving myself in to PVP slowly, at own pace. And likewise, I also know if I tire of PVP and/or war, then there is always the possibility of moving back to Hi-sec in a NPC corp. From a lore/RP perspective, I dont see the whole deal about declaring war in Hi-sec. Is Hi-sec not empire territory (and so, lore wise, protected enough), and null-sec alliance and war territory, with low being a mid point between the two? Again, I'm new myself, but I dont get the obession that I'm seeing on the forums of 'PVPers' being determined to kill people in hi-sec.


I find this post charming because at a month old, I had already gone through a wardec because I too foolishly wanted to join a player-run corp and be part of a team working together towards a goal (one suggestion I remember was 'hey let's all join NPC corps and work together while not being an official corp'). And, like you, I too made my way to Providence in a short amount of time (back when LFA was a Provi holder). So I can relate to your current situation.

My solution is simple, make anyone in an NPC corp stand as 'Unaffiliated' or 'Free Agent' or however you want to put it, which can then be wardec'd. And yes I agree, leaving or being kicked from a corp must remain instantaneous (vital to both player and corp this remains). However to prevent the current plague of corphopping/dec shields for the purpose of wardec evasion, each subsequent 'processing' into another corp (within the span of, say, a month) takes an exponentially increasing amount of time, while remaining 'Unaffiliated' leaves you available to an individual wardec. So players can either join a corp which will actually defend themselves, run the risks of going it alone, or do what you've already done and simply leave for an area of space (low-sec, null, wormholes) where the attackers won't follow. A lot of people would say doing what you've done and taking the plunge into 0.0 1 month in is impossible; good for you for proving them wrong.

This is not about 'forcing PvP' on anyone, it's about balance and equality. Is it really fair that you got dec'd a week into your account because you wanted to be part of a team in an MMO while someone else autopilots his billion-isk freighter without a care in the world to fund his "PvP character" active in a second window so he can wardec and stomp newbie corps? Simply put, by making wardecs less easy to escape, newbies will be targeted less, not more, because as of the moment newbies are targeted for wars more often simply because they don't know how to evade PvP as effectively.

By making both equally vulnerable under an equal, no-NPC corp system, the incentive shifts towards dec'ing fattest and most lucrative targets possible, not just those who won't drop corp instantly or never leave Aliastra (ie: newbies who don't know better). Retaliation against an aggressor's PvE account is easier. Disrupting a nullsec alliance's highsec supply line is far easier. Escort fleets might be needed, and correspondingly the price of everything increases with all these losses (which isn't bad, as the work of industrialists and miners increases as they have a reliable way of dealing with competition other then being forced to undercut their orders. In other words while you pay more, the ore you mine is worth more, the guns you build sell for more). Everyone benefits, except for those who lazily follow the path of least resistance towards the greatest amount of isk and refuse to take any precautions in protecting themselves
Ghazu
#62 - 2012-02-03 14:39:22 UTC
Op a good post. edgy in a good, straight up way and not trying too hard.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#63 - 2012-02-03 14:43:12 UTC
Yup guessed the solution you came up with.
Want me to throw the real wrench in on why I think your idea is horrible?

It won't work against vet alts espeically targets who you claim are null sec allaince daisies, they are infinitely much more intelligent than the system you purposed. No matter how long of a timer you put on it or what angle to approach it into and it will never get into the scenario you just imagined in the last paragraph as there is an amazing number of work arounds.

So with veteran alts definetly not the munching list what are you left with?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Danfen Fenix
#64 - 2012-02-03 14:50:05 UTC
Ok I think I understand where you're coming from them, make it so that basically people can not, say for example, provoke others (in anyway) and then be able to go hide in an NPC corp? It does sound like a plausible idea to me, just perhaps with a few changes to the proposed system P

(All NPC corps are kept, so loyalty points etc continue to work. However, only the starting one is joinable (and cannot be wardecced), which one being based on how a player chooses their background. They are automatically put in to this, like rookie chat, and so like it is in the current system. If they leave to join another corp, then they can not rejoin it (and hence, here we move to your system of 'Free lancers'), and also, like the Rookie chat there is also a time limit to how long they are kept in the rookie corp (say, 3 months, to allow players to find their feet and look at different careers properly? After that, they could either carry on being freelance, or look for a corp (e.g. E-Uni if they feel they're not ready without more practise at things)

Which brings a second point, which is the tutorial. If you were to be elected and could push these ideas forwards, then another suggestion would be to have a tutorial section on corporations, hi sec, low sec and null sec dynamics and PVP, along with suggested corps to move on to when their ready (corps could apply to CCP to be added to this list, determined by certain...requirements?) Just so this could try to prevent newbies from making decisions without all the info, as well as make sure they know about the freelance affects when they come in to play. I was confused myself when it came to looking for corps/using the corp screen, as the amount of them was overwhelming and the tutorial didn't cover anything about them P ).


And on the OP...

From what I've discovered so far in the game, and seen on the forums, I fully agree. So far in my playing time, the highest amount of communication and interaction I've had with other players has been in null (and I moved here last weekend). Most my time in Hi-sec was spent missioning alone, with barely anyone talking even across local. Most hi-sec CSM suggestions I've seen have been about 'fixing hi sec', which I dont have a clue what that means as while I was there the activites available seemed to be working fine. However, I did notice the lack of 'player content' in hi-sec when I moved to null (just hearing about the system sov-upgrades opened my eyes to how big it can get), and yet I havnt seen any/or many good, ideas thrown about for implementing similar variations/comparative systems for Hi-sec. Think the only one I've really like so far was improvements to mining (which could be done via 'roid graphical affects. Can't remember the author now though) .
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-02-03 16:12:05 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
You admit to being an idiot. Thats more than most ever do.

LOL, then you are going to love my CSM pitch

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-02-03 16:14:42 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Yup guessed the solution you came up with.
Want me to throw the real wrench in on why I think your idea is horrible?

It won't work against vet alts espeically targets who you claim are null sec allaince daisies, they are infinitely much more intelligent than the system you purposed. No matter how long of a timer you put on it or what angle to approach it into and it will never get into the scenario you just imagined in the last paragraph as there is an amazing number of work arounds.

So with veteran alts definetly not the munching list what are you left with?

Out of actual reasons to keep NPC corps, Nova Fox finally argues "It won't work because... it won't somehow"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-02-03 16:34:44 UTC
Karadion wrote:
They don't want people who live in their parent's basement.

i'm i right we will not have somebody from goonswarm in next CSM? Big smile

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#68 - 2012-02-03 16:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Ok I think I understand where you're coming from them, make it so that basically people can not, say for example, provoke others (in anyway) and then be able to go hide in an NPC corp? It does sound like a plausible idea to me, just perhaps with a few changes to the proposed system P

(All NPC corps are kept, so loyalty points etc continue to work. However, only the starting one is joinable (and cannot be wardecced), which one being based on how a player chooses their background. They are automatically put in to this, like rookie chat, and so like it is in the current system. If they leave to join another corp, then they can not rejoin it (and hence, here we move to your system of 'Free lancers'), and also, like the Rookie chat there is also a time limit to how long they are kept in the rookie corp (say, 3 months, to allow players to find their feet and look at different careers properly? After that, they could either carry on being freelance, or look for a corp (e.g. E-Uni if they feel they're not ready without more practise at things)

Which brings a second point, which is the tutorial. If you were to be elected and could push these ideas forwards, then another suggestion would be to have a tutorial section on corporations, hi sec, low sec and null sec dynamics and PVP, along with suggested corps to move on to when their ready (corps could apply to CCP to be added to this list, determined by certain...requirements?) Just so this could try to prevent newbies from making decisions without all the info, as well as make sure they know about the freelance affects when they come in to play. I was confused myself when it came to looking for corps/using the corp screen, as the amount of them was overwhelming and the tutorial didn't cover anything about them P ).


And on the OP...

From what I've discovered so far in the game, and seen on the forums, I fully agree. So far in my playing time, the highest amount of communication and interaction I've had with other players has been in null (and I moved here last weekend). Most my time in Hi-sec was spent missioning alone, with barely anyone talking even across local. Most hi-sec CSM suggestions I've seen have been about 'fixing hi sec', which I dont have a clue what that means as while I was there the activites available seemed to be working fine. However, I did notice the lack of 'player content' in hi-sec when I moved to null (just hearing about the system sov-upgrades opened my eyes to how big it can get), and yet I havnt seen any/or many good, ideas thrown about for implementing similar variations/comparative systems for Hi-sec. Think the only one I've really like so far was improvements to mining (which could be done via 'roid graphical affects. Can't remember the author now though) .


The point is hes doing it for a reason that isnt going to fix it and to fix it just for him and the way he wants to make it possible is very much against a ccp stated policy before that last I checked seemed a bit 'unflexible.' So overall a high potential lost cause to take up.

They way he suggests fixing it highly suggests that he is a high sec dweller and not a real player in high sec. High sec players are not the up and front sort of people but they do go around and generate player content and in some ways I consider most of them more insidous than null sec where its just business out there. High sec players take it to another level for another purpose but they are more than intillegent enough to know that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Ultimately hes going about the entirely wrong way to disrupt the 'allaince daisy chains.' and secondly hes looking entirely the wrong place for the isk fountains and going about the entirely wrong way on shutting them down. A war declaration against an individual isnt going to fix this at all and its going to come at a cost of newer players staying with eve. True there are shining examples of players who jump right in and got the nature of the game amazingly quick there are others where it takes a year or two.

According to the profile hes been labeled as the sort of person you drag across for several dozen posts. How they conclude to that is obviously apperant.

For example, Ill list a reason why it won't work and watch him just blatenly dismiss a very serious concern and watch him become more selfish with every post and more of a person who looks like he doesnt know to play the 'meta-game'

For example I can present Exibit A on why the idea wont work.

Character Bazzar.

Hell then either dismiss it go back after the original bait question or come up wtih some stupid excuse that barely satisifies the serious accusation he really doesnt know how to play that portion of the game and this is the best solution he can come up with. Either way it ultimately shows he didnt entirely think it though, didnt consider that null, WH and Low sec exists and there are infinitely more mechanics at work than war dec available.

And the thing about the mining suggestion you brough up which I have read and liked to a large degree on how asteriods should be presented its not just a high sec issue, mining is an eve issue as a whole.

Finally the reason why Ill contiue to dismiss this other guy is serious about his platform is that he honestly belives war system is a high sec only problem.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-02-03 17:05:44 UTC
Killing the NPC corps is killing the solo playstyle.
Solo players will be KOS without consequences.

I don't want to be in a player corp. I trust no one.
No god, no master.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#70 - 2012-02-03 17:09:19 UTC
Kyle Valentine wrote:
Killing the NPC corps is killing the solo playstyle.
Solo players will be KOS without consequences.

I don't want to be in a player corp. I trust no one.
No god, no master.


I envy you at times. my masters are cruel at times.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#71 - 2012-02-03 17:11:07 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Kyle Valentine wrote:
Killing the NPC corps is killing the solo playstyle.
Solo players will be KOS without consequences.

I don't want to be in a player corp. I trust no one.
No god, no master.


I envy you at times. my masters are cruel at times.


Me too. Being friendless must rock!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-02-03 17:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Kyle Valentine wrote:
Killing the NPC corps is killing the solo playstyle.
.

I've seen solo players live in every kind of sec space and thrive.One-man player corps seem to do fine as well.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-02-03 17:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Nova Fox wrote:

They way he suggests fixing it highly suggests that he is a high sec dweller and not a real player in high sec. .
Another knowledgeable post from the guy who claims individual wardecs are 'bannable' according to the EULA and that NPC corp tax rate is 15%
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-02-03 17:47:50 UTC
True, solo players are everywhere.
But there's always a time where you must take a hauler and go selling your stuff.
And if you're KOS in hisec and can't enter null...
Even parasites needs a break sometimes !
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-02-03 18:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Kyle Valentine wrote:
True, solo players are everywhere.
But there's always a time where you must take a hauler and go selling your stuff.
And if you're KOS in hisec and can't enter null...
Even parasites needs a break sometimes !
Living in sov null isn't particularly difficult solo if you pick a quiet region. Provi is still NRDS, for one. Definitely more trouble then being part of a team though, I'll grant you that. But, for the sake or argument, if your hauling alt was decable, why would anyone dec it if you only used it extremely sporadically?

I've known players who have dwelt in a comfy wormhole system for months solo without any allies or support, and that doesn't even have local, let alone CONCORD. And if that's possible, I strongly believe a solo player can get by with the occasional wardec just like how players in regular corps deal with.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-02-03 18:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
All this noise and yet NPC corporations, mission runners and highesec are here to stay.



So instead of... ya know, addressing high sec in an intelligent manner in order to make it better fit the "grand view of EVE" as he puts it, we should just give all CSM empire (meat free salad) representatives the cast off without much thought or consideration. Leaving us to consider that Empire is not only not fixable, but apparently cannot be guided through a metamorphosis that would better EVE (and all players) as a whole. I guess he is saying that it should be more or less removed from the game, or ignored entirely at this point, and that is the best and most obvious course of action?

Am I misunderstanding you, Mr fox?
Perhaps you can clarify some of these points for me?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#77 - 2012-02-03 18:58:10 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:

They way he suggests fixing it highly suggests that he is a high sec dweller and not a real player in high sec. .
Another knowledgeable post from the guy who claims individual wardecs are 'bannable' according to the EULA and that NPC corp tax rate is 15%


If he says it enough hell belive it! :D

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#78 - 2012-02-03 19:41:15 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
All this noise and yet NPC corporations, mission runners and highesec are here to stay.



So instead of... ya know, addressing high sec in an intelligent manner in order to make it better fit the "grand view of EVE" as he puts it, we should just give all CSM empire (meat free salad) representatives the cast off without much thought or consideration. Leaving us to consider that Empire is not only not fixable, but apparently cannot be guided through a metamorphosis that would better EVE (and all players) as a whole. I guess he is saying that it should be more or less removed from the game, or ignored entirely at this point, and that is the best and most obvious course of action?

Am I misunderstanding you, Mr fox?
Perhaps you can clarify some of these points for me?


Partially.

Ill break it down easy enough.

Stupid prey dont live long, neither do supid predators.

I consider High sec dwellers like our csm candidate wanna-be here to be among the stupid predators. Unable to think of clever ways to prevent starvation. He can only seem to vicitimize stupid prey or pilots who are mostly unfamilar with the rest of the game 'yet.' Either way I see him as a coward for not sticking his buiness into his problem and stirring things enough to get rid of his targets and risking having it chopped off when it backfires.

I consider high sec players the prey hes been failing to interrupt on any level for a length in time. They're clever enough to know all of the loopholes needed to avoid getting legally shot at and hopefully clever enough to make it cost ineffective for them to be disrupted but many risk the cost effect as so many of the stupid preadators dont even bother risking some of these days. They also know the location of these 'isk fountains' our csm candidate friend thinks exists and is unable to drink from.

Two breeds apart, one is playing a game that knows all the rules and lay of the lands and utilizes every aspect there is. The other has such as narrow vision of things he cannot see what this effect will have on anything let alone not knowiing out to reach around and hit the soft spots on his targets.

CCP about two years ago+ shortly after the war rewrite which I belive specifically stated that players had a right to pursue Non-consentual status in most part you really cant force consentual status at all. Even with PVPers you cannot really force that on them. Whole reason why you cant eject a player out of a station. Whole reason why you can't kill players inside of a station. Whole reason why you cant kill players that are logged off for sometime and offline either.

This policy is almost just as hard stoned in the engraving as the no name change policy they set forth.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-02-03 20:28:22 UTC
NovaFox has certainly constructed a hilarious fantasy of what he thinks I do in EVE, because he hopes attacking me personally will prove more fruitful then attacking the idea of finally removing NPC corps, which only resulted in exposing NovaFox's lack of knowledge on a wide array of subjects ranging from NPC corp tax rate to the EVE EULA to the NPE.

Of course, this fantasy is as accurate as anything else coming out of his mouth.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#80 - 2012-02-03 20:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
NovaFox has certainly constructed a hilarious fantasy of what he thinks I do in EVE, because he hopes attacking me personally will prove more fruitful then attacking the idea of finally removing NPC corps, which only resulted in exposing NovaFox's lack of knowledge on a wide array of subjects ranging from NPC corp tax rate to the EVE EULA to the NPE.

Of course, this fantasy is as accurate as anything else coming out of his mouth.


You admitted proof you have problems killing people in Eve. Move along because you're rather horrible at sparring as well.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.