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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Mining- Why it needs to be saved, and how to do it

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Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#81 - 2012-01-20 16:19:30 UTC
Bunny Sweetcheeks wrote:
Very nice post and ideas. It certainly got me thinking about the 95 / 5 - visual inspection - good vs slag roids.

How would these slag roids work. Mine them and get nothing? Still takes a bot one cycle to determine if they got anything.


People keep missing this because a lot of real human players just don't mine anything in this game...but, to be clear he is talking about YIELD, not what you get in your cargo hold per mining laser cycle. You still get XXX number of Veldspar, but once you refine it....it gives you balls next to nothing yield in Trit.

Hope that clears thing up.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Yvette Sebastior
Starwinders
#82 - 2012-01-20 16:32:30 UTC
Great ideas OP. +1
Bunny Sweetcheeks
Boundless Hypocrisy
#83 - 2012-01-21 00:02:37 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Bunny Sweetcheeks wrote:
Very nice post and ideas. It certainly got me thinking about the 95 / 5 - visual inspection - good vs slag roids.

How would these slag roids work. Mine them and get nothing? Still takes a bot one cycle to determine if they got anything.


People keep missing this because a lot of real human players just don't mine anything in this game...but, to be clear he is talking about YIELD, not what you get in your cargo hold per mining laser cycle. You still get XXX number of Veldspar, but once you refine it....it gives you balls next to nothing yield in Trit.

Hope that clears thing up.


I *think* you talking about me when you say "... to be clear he is talking about...."

I understood what the OP meant. I was just going through the various ways of implementation and how a bot might overcome it.

The starting point for me (and not what the OP intended) would be from the point of view of the easiest to implement if I were CCP. And the easiest would be if you mine a slag_roid you would get nothing in your cargo. Much like the salvager works now when a cycle produces nothing. You get nothing but a message telling you that you got nothing! :)

And the analysis for how a bot would interpret that started there. If a bot just started targeting roids and mining using the something vs nothing approach it would only take one cycle to know if you need to continue mining the roid or move on.

I then go onto various versions of "you get something from a roid even if it's crap" and how a bot would approach that.

Hope that makes sense.
- Bunny
Bartholemu Fu-Baz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-01-21 00:36:57 UTC
Janus Nightmare wrote:
Oh! I had another thought.

Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.

Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.

So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.

Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.

Just a thought :)


I like this idea. May need some polish as far as fleet and lag mitigation is concerned.

Fleets can mine the same rocks and the rock isn't yours unless you've been mining it for a full cycle maybe?
Elessa Enaka
Doomheim
#85 - 2012-01-21 01:46:54 UTC
Another thought that I just had was having Salvage be the replacement for loot regardless of the source of the wreck. So no matter if the wreck was PC or NPC, the only things that you would get from it would be salvage of some sort or another. There could even be new types of salvage that would represent ruined mods and ammo.

I was thinking about it and BPC's (while elegant) don't really make sense to me. I mean, if they are paper, how do they survive the fiery ball of death caused by the ship popping? Even if they were held in some form of electronic format, it still wouldn't make sense for them to survive the blast.

It wouldn't step on salvagers toes either as you could make the loot-salvage be not nearly as much as you get from actually salvaging the wreck or potentially far inferior to what you get from actually using the salvager mod.

Cue suicide gankers from trade hubs belittling/crying/raging about this suggestion in 3, 2, 1......

Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats....
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#86 - 2012-01-21 04:57:30 UTC
Sheena Tzash wrote:
Personally I would like to see the ACT of mining to be more fun.

Having a bonus that is random doesn't mean it'll be more fun - it basically means that the people who mine the MOST will get the bonus dropped more often because they are there all day and all night long and therefore much more likely to get it.

The way I see it you could kill two birds with one stone, both bots AND make it more fun by changing mining into a mini game of its own.

Imagine that you land onto a belt and you start up the strip miners - as they run you have a mini game running which:

1) If you don't do anything at all will still bring in the ore - afk / low attention mining is still ok but it would require the user to do SOMETHING every so often to make sure they are not AFK for a stupid long time.

2) If you DO something you'll get a better yield than going AFK

3) The mini game requires an element of skill to get the best out of

4) Skills will make the mini game easier or provide more yield.

5) Mini game is actually fun!

This means that players who actually mine at the keyboard will get the most (maybe as much as 50 - 100% more than AFK miners), the AFK miners only work in short bursts (which is fine if you want to chill, answer the phone or chat in local without worrying too much) and bots won't be able to operate at all / as well if they can't play the mini game.

I think some of the appeal of mining is that its quite stress free (in high sec) and its something you can do with a few mins or a few hours and we can't take that away - but we should also be able to provide an incentive to allow miners to actually enjoy their profession and be able to get the very most out of the profession over AFK miners and bots.



I've seen the Mini game idea pop up a couple of times, and while it sounds interesting...do you really want to be distracted while you are sitting duck? All the posts on how to not get ganked while mining High Sec usually involve watching D-Scan, keep you hulk moving (that is a mini game in it's self, aligning to a new object every 2 mins or so, and not very fun after a hour) and so on. I've never mined Low/Null and can't imagine it would be any better down there.

The idea I've had for mining I picked up from David Webers "The Armageddon Inheritance" . In one part, they are useing Warships to rip apart planets, roids, and such into slag that is hauled to smelters to be broken down as ore. I kinda see this is mining lasers/stripminers are doing, in a way.

I like the idea of having to go out, blow up the roids with heavy weapons, and then have the miners move in to vacuum up the bits. This could be done solo, or bring a new level to Corp mining Ops by using the non-miners to break down the roids and fit in more than flying a mining laser equipped CA for meager mining amounts.

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.
Instrument Dealer
Industrial Research Innovations
Renaissance Federation
#87 - 2012-01-21 17:45:15 UTC
Love the ideas in here Big smile
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-01-22 17:41:29 UTC
Having certain minerals only available in lowsec and nullsec would go a long way to fixing mining

Dropping meta bpcs could be a nice solution to the rats
Mirima Thurander
#89 - 2012-01-22 17:51:16 UTC
Fish Hunter wrote:
Having certain minerals only available in lowsec and nullsec would go a long way to fixing mining

Dropping meta bpcs could be a nice solution to the rats



how about

rats drop damaged meta mods that require mins to repair?

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-01-22 18:21:32 UTC
OP's idea is pretty good really. The problem is that you have to deal with bots which inspect EVE"s memory space or uses python hooks. I wonder if you could do some sort of encryption to make that more difficult, though?
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#91 - 2012-01-22 19:43:13 UTC
I really hope CCP will do something serious with mining, because its the way how I made my first ISk and its a thing I like to do when tired from RL, just sit and watch the rocks melting.
The point is that its not profitable, its full of bots, its boring etc...If CPP ever made mining botless, exciting and at least a bit profitable activity, I will love them.

tl;dr +1Big smile
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#92 - 2012-01-22 20:10:10 UTC
I pray to Veldspar the next Developer "theme" is Industry, as these are some great and thought out ideas!

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.
Steel Heid
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-01-25 08:29:25 UTC
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, as I'm rather new to the game. This is an idea mostly for null-sec/low-sec: a new class of super rare, super valuable minerals. They would be needed in T2/other production. They would only spawn at special scan-sites, in completely random systems, which would be far and few between. The sites would have time-to-live, and despawn by themselves after a certain period. The point is that mining ops for these materials would have to roam through large areas of space to search for them. It would be a wild-west gold-seeker sort of thing, and it could feed all kinds of PVP.
Valei Khurelem
#94 - 2012-01-25 08:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Joshua Aivoras wrote:
I pray to Veldspar the next Developer "theme" is Industry, as these are some great and thought out ideas!


Industry needs some serious fixing, I'd like to see blueprint originals available for sale in 0.0 space so we can see some ind of economy there, something needs to be done about public lab queuing as well.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#95 - 2012-01-25 09:05:26 UTC
OP, an excellent post love the idea that the roids themselves are the captcha!

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Sicex
#96 - 2012-01-25 09:12:59 UTC
Interesting idea about the rotating asteroids. Lots of false positives is good line of thinking when fighting bots...
pussnheels
Viziam
#97 - 2012-01-25 09:45:44 UTC
You need more than just a new mining mmechanism to revive mining as a active and competitive career option , while the OP concept is a good idea i do not think it will work since it will give a huge advantage to people who have their peak hours just after DT, while our brothers and sisters in the America s will only find empty belts

The concept is great but you need much more than this there are alot of threads floating around how it can be done and some of my favorites are these

-Replace rogue drone loot by a small bounty and better salvage, some sources indicate that a relative large proportion of minerals come from ratting bots in the drone regions

-Harder sanction if a player gets caught using Macro s

-a revival of nullsec industry, making mining more lucrative again in nullsec . this needs more than just a few changes in gamemechanics , it needs a revision of how the industry lvl upgrades work , it need a workable but balanced counter against AFK cloakers and most of all a serious mentallity change to both industry minded players and pvp oriented players

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Xenuchrist
The Scope
#98 - 2012-01-25 10:14:39 UTC
Elessa Enaka wrote:
Janus Nightmare wrote:
Oh! I had another thought.

So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.

Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.

Just a thought :)


I like that idea a lot, make it just the same as can flipping while your mining lasers are active on the asteroid. If another member of your corp decides to mine the same asteroid as you, it's not a problem. However, when someone else comes along they get flagged just the same as if they had robbed your jetcan and become a legal target for anyone in your corp. If you leave the belt though and come back to them mining "your" asteroid, you're SOL.

I do think that this would help with bots, I also think that there would be those who would exploit it just as there are those who canflip to provoke miners.

Either way though, I think that the positives would outweigh the negatives.


This could help a with a possible bot circumvention of the original proposition as well: Obstructing bots from simply following (perceived) non-bot players. In-game it could be justified as the rock being a claim (Klondike-style) belonging to the first miner.

--  "In human stupidity, when it is not malicious, there is something very touching, even beautiful... There always is." /Tolstoy
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#99 - 2012-01-25 10:55:16 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.


Samere here after 10 years of eve'ing I still can count the number of mining ops I did on two hands.

Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

If you've read this far, I congratulate you. Thank you for your time and attention. I look forward to constructive posts on this topic. No, it doesn't belong in "Features and Ideas". GD has more views and this isn't about a feature, it's about fixing the game as a holistic system.
So, let's hear it! Thoughts?


This package would indeed solve many of the problems most have with mining. I like the the 5% contains 95% idea and the compressed "officer spawn" ore idea alot. One irks the bots, the other encourages the player.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Darkmus Zay
Bedlam.
#100 - 2012-01-25 11:01:20 UTC
This was Tl;Dr so dunno what you are saying.

All I know is that we are swimming in cheap minerals to keep the engines running in 0.0.
Players are getting to rich, so maybe all we need is higher prices on minerals. and only the miners can do that.