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What's best for L3s: T3D, BC, or Low-SP BS?

Author
Ragnar Danskjold
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2017-05-31 13:20:42 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The basic rule for ship class verses mission levels :

Level 1 = Frigate, Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Carrier, Fleet with logistics

Personally I like T3 Cruisers, they are very versatile and can fit a better defense than most other ships in their class and higher. They can put out enough DPS to take down most NPC's quickly and easily. Some NPC's may take a little bit of time but due to T3's defensive stats, they can stay engaged and wear down the defense of tough NPC's.

T3 Cruisers can be refit for numerous careers, everything from cloaky scout to exploration. The only drawback is they can't enter DED 3/10 and 4/10 exploration sites. The main problem with using T3 Cruiser in PvP is when it gets destroyed, you lose one level of a trained sub-system skill. However the saving grace of T3 Cruisers is the sub-system skills don't take very long to train up.


DMC


its more like

Level 1= anything that can fit a weapon
Level 2= T1 frigate/DD
Level 3= CL
Level 4= MJD CH or BB, BB typically faster

you want to use the fastest ship possible for each mission, this means research the damage types so you can stack against those and know which type is best to use yourself. This allows you to bring smaller classes of ship to do the same mission. T1 CL's can easily run L3's, for the OP id suggest an RLM Caracal and you can start them even as an alpha.


You can save the time of travelling by bringing a smaller ship, but you will lose the time by killing the rats slower. Why don't you try to do some non-blitzable lv4s in an interceptor? It's the fastest ship available in game and I think with good player skill you should be able to speed tank it.


Nice reductio ad absurdum at that strawman there. When I was referring to fastest ship possible I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

If you research the correct damage types you will be able to kill the rats plenty fast in a Lvl3 in a T1 CL as a T1 CH. So why bring a slow ship when you can bring a faster one that costs less to fully fit than the hull price of a heavier ship. Furthermore T1 CL's can be flown by Alphas so I was pointing out that in addition to being more cost effective, the OP does not even have to wait to begin them.


Tell me how much dps your caracal has and I'll compare it with my cyclone. You should already use the damage type the rats are most vulnerable to whatever you are flying, so this is actually not a bonus. If you can really do those missions easily, then the ship cost doesnt matter too much, because you would almost never lose it. As for the alphas, I really doubt whether they can survive all those lv3s in a T1 cruiser without retreating.


wouldn't know never used a caracal they look ugly to me. I only suggested it to OP because he likes Caldari, but he could just as easily use a Moa. As for DPS you should know better, the raw number does not matter so much. The application of light missles against the many small ships found in L3's will be much better than Ham's and certainly better than Heavies. Back when I used to do high sec PvE I did it in stabbers and arbitrators and found myself killing everything plenty fast. I even brought the arby into J-space for C1's and C2's which are easily doable by T1 cruisers.

As for losing the ship, you will find that CL's can be quite tanky in a site due to the fact that most DPS comes from big ships so the small sig size of a CL mitigates lots of damage. While everyone else had billion isk brick tank loki doctrines for Cap escalations my corp used fleet stabbers and Ashimmus for a quarter of the price.

Which brings us to cost, ofc the ******* cost matters you run the sites to make money. Smallest investment for return is the point.

The point of all this is that there is no reason for OP to continue wasting time on L2's with a CL when he could be making much more isk in a L3 even if he did have to warp out in the middle which he shouldn't unless he hits the trigger too early. By the time he gets to CH and Omega he should be doing L4's or better yet, getting out of High K space.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#42 - 2017-05-31 16:33:36 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Back when I used to do high sec PvE I did it in stabbers and arbitrators and found myself killing everything plenty fast.

lol, okay Roll

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

ValentinaDLM
Godless Horizon.
Atlas. Alliance
#43 - 2017-05-31 17:20:59 UTC
Gila for sure, it can tank well enough that you can sacrifice 2x rig slots for double hyperspatials and that is really the best way to blitz l3s. A great deal of your time will be spent simply warping to your agent or to the system to do the mission in. Ships like the Raven or Drake take a long time to align, and a long time to warp, and have big sigs so that they tend to need comparatively more tank than an AB gila. DMC has a nice rule of thumb chart but, here is mine:

Lvl 1: Worm
Lvl 2: Worm
Lvl 3: Gila
Lvl 4: Gila or Rattlesnake
Lvl 5: Spider tank Rattlesnakes (I love carriers, but too many l5s have gates to make them that good for them IMO)

Forsaken Hubs: Gila/VNI
Havens/Sanctums: Nyx>Hel>Thanatos>Nid>Rattlesnake

Just get in a Guristas ships, and stay in them basically. There are also FWIW some solid reasons to go with the faster fighters from Minmatar carriers, rather than the tankier ones from the Gallente ones, but I fight Gallente carriers to work out well enough, and they have the same skill training path as the Gurista ships for the most part.
Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
#44 - 2017-05-31 17:58:01 UTC
I'd go with a drake because drakes can do doo both 3 & 4's and still give you a measure of safety to learn how the mission mechanics work, ships that scramble you and which ones to take out first.

Raven is an excellent mission runner, fit with a mwd and fit for long range cruise missiles you can't go wrong.

Drake, excellent lvl 3 mission runner, but can struggle in lvl 4 missions due to DPS on BS NPC.

Jackdaw, good to struggling for lvl 3's, some lvl 3's have high DPS for a destroyer to handle, lvl 4, forget it, although you can do doo some lvl 4's most will send that jackdaw running.

If you ever get the chance a Barghest is an awesome PVE boat, some people will hate that suggestion but man, I love it, very capable ship, but bit expensive when compared to a similar fit raven.
Alasdan Helminthauge
HC - inswineity
#45 - 2017-06-01 00:39:38 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Back when I used to do high sec PvE I did it in stabbers and arbitrators and found myself killing everything plenty fast.


If you think the speed of a stabber can compensate for its 340 less (or 40% less) dps than a hurricane,
lol okayRoll
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#46 - 2017-06-01 02:17:23 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Gila for sure, it can tank well enough that you can sacrifice 2x rig slots for double hyperspatials and that is really the best way to blitz l3s. A great deal of your time will be spent simply warping to your agent or to the system to do the mission in.

and another great deal of time will be used waiting for your drones to fly around

Piugattuk wrote:
I'd go with a drake because drakes can do doo both 3 & 4's and still give you a measure of safety to learn how the mission mechanics work, ships that scramble you and which ones to take out first.

Raven is an excellent mission runner, fit with a mwd and fit for long range cruise missiles you can't go wrong.

Drake, excellent lvl 3 mission runner, but can struggle in lvl 4 missions due to DPS on BS NPC.

Jackdaw, good to struggling for lvl 3's, some lvl 3's have high DPS for a destroyer to handle, lvl 4, forget it, although you can do doo some lvl 4's most will send that jackdaw running.

If you ever get the chance a Barghest is an awesome PVE boat, some people will hate that suggestion but man, I love it, very capable ship, but bit expensive when compared to a similar fit raven.

drakes are good, but fat and slow. Also I find that margin of safety is a bit too high and as a result they are a little too easy to turn the brain off in. f1 wait a bit, f1 wait some more, f1 fall asleep on the keyboard. And yes a drake can do lv4s but it is rather inefficient, HML damage just isn't that great, much better to stay and speed run lv3s or work up to a bs for 4s.

Barghest is probably my favorite missile ship, the missile velocity bonus is great you can hit over 100km away before the next volley launches. you can kite most missions and shoot only the triggers/mission completion targets which makes it nice for blitzing.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Ragnar Danskjold
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2017-06-01 15:02:44 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Back when I used to do high sec PvE I did it in stabbers and arbitrators and found myself killing everything plenty fast.


If you think the speed of a stabber can compensate for its 340 less (or 40% less) dps than a hurricane,
lol okayRoll

No, I think if you are doing L3's in a cain you are wasting time by not doing L4's that it could be doing.
Alasdan Helminthauge
HC - inswineity
#48 - 2017-06-02 01:16:31 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Back when I used to do high sec PvE I did it in stabbers and arbitrators and found myself killing everything plenty fast.


If you think the speed of a stabber can compensate for its 340 less (or 40% less) dps than a hurricane,
lol okayRoll

No, I think if you are doing L3's in a cain you are wasting time by not doing L4's that it could be doing.


I'm pretty sure that my battleship can do l4s much faster. How long do you expect that cane to complete a lv4 blockade? Have you tried it yourselve?
Ragnar Danskjold
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2017-06-02 02:51:33 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:


I'm pretty sure that my battleship can do l4s much faster. How long do you expect that cane to complete a lv4 blockade? Have you tried it yourselve?


Absolute genius! Its almost like I said exactly that, why in fact I think in my first comment I said, BB would do L4's faster than CH. This does not alter the fact that CH are wasting time running L3's, they should do L4's. It does not change the fact that OP alpha can start running L3's in a CL instead of wasting time on L2's.
Alasdan Helminthauge
HC - inswineity
#50 - 2017-06-02 03:02:51 UTC
Dont worry about OP anymore. It was almost 2 months ago. Maybe he's already flying a marauder now.
Nyx Nirvana
GozCorp
#51 - 2017-06-04 11:06:39 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Dont worry about OP anymore. It was almost 2 months ago. Maybe he's already flying a marauder now.


Lol I wish.

Still an alpha, been watching the thread since I posted it. I'll be omega'ing soon, hopefully. I honesty wasn't expecting this thread to be viewed this many times Big smile

Seeing what everyone's been saying, I'll probably train into a Drake, run L3s, then the moment i have decent enough skills, jump in a Raven (I'd probably fit the raven with meta stuff mostly, until I get the skills to use the T2 stuff [Apart from damage control/ballistic control obviously, as I can already use T2 variants of that]). I've been running L4s with a corpmate, and seeig how much money there is to make, speed-training into a raven will get me on the isk-train faster.

Once I've done that, I'll start using the more fancy ships (once I can afford them, and have decent backup skills) like the Gila/Rattlesnek.

Have a corpmate who uses the Pancake for all his L4s. Seems very effective.

Thanks for all the responses/suggestions. I think I'm sorted for the future, but there'll most likely be more alphas/low-SP pilots in my position, trying to work out what to do. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

Keep posting ideas, if you can. Thanks guys Big smile

Nyx Nirvana
GozCorp
#52 - 2017-06-04 11:12:25 UTC
Mark Remillard wrote:
Second Response (post):

What are you planning to do in addition to running missions? That question will help identify what route you should go.

1) If the secondary goal is High-Sec Group PVE (incursions): train into the Machariel, Vindicator or Nightmare Battleships
2) If the secondary goal is Low Sec PVP (or faction warfare), pay attention to frigate and destroyer hulls.
3) If you are planning an eventual null sec or wormhole space move: pay attention to the various cruisers.


Outside of null-sec alliance warfare, Battleships and Battle-cruiser's are mostly used only for running PVE missions. You will get burned out quickly if that is all you ever do in-game.


Edit: (regarding Incursions):

Caladari Battleships (and missile weapons) are not desired for running incursions. However, the Caldari logistics cruiser, Basilisk, is. One of the requirements to fly is Caldari cruisers V, a requirement shared with the strategic (T3) and heavy assault cruiser......

Yeah, have a fried who does incursion Logi. He's saying that I should speed-train into a Rokh fit he showed me that would get me into incursions quickly. Might just consider it.

In regards to the other stuff I do outside of mission running, I normally see if I can x up in a public PvP fleet, like Spectre. That keeps me interested and gets me off the permanent grind-train.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#53 - 2017-06-04 17:52:22 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
No, I think if you are doing L3's in a cain you are wasting time by not doing L4's that it could be doing.


Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:


I'm pretty sure that my battleship can do l4s much faster. How long do you expect that cane to complete a lv4 blockade? Have you tried it yourselve?


Absolute genius! Its almost like I said exactly that, why in fact I think in my first comment I said, BB would do L4's faster than CH. This does not alter the fact that CH are wasting time running L3's, they should do L4's. It does not change the fact that OP alpha can start running L3's in a CL instead of wasting time on L2's.


there is a certain point where running level 3s quickly will be more income than trying to run lv4s slowly, especially if you try to force it in a battlecruiser or low SP battleship. when it takes you 30m to an hour, if not more, to run most missions you tend to want to be cap stable, and due to your low dps you can't quickly clear npcs so you need a large tank. These issues compound and form bad habits. And at the same time you could run 10 level 3s in that hour instead.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

delboy119
No trouble in the midst
#54 - 2017-07-28 08:21:28 UTC
For L3 missions, I would go for the drake. An Omni-tanked fully passive setup will be a perfect for you.

A good t2 setup will cost around 75-80Mil and is very usefuleven beyond l3's.

I use mine also for sleeper sites, etc and woks really well there too.
Dupard Lemmont
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#55 - 2017-08-03 11:28:40 UTC
Ploing wrote:
4.

i would take a look at the tengu. over 1000 dps and a brick tank. then she is so flexible with the subsystems.


Do you have any good tengu pve fittings you want to share?
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