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What's best for L3s: T3D, BC, or Low-SP BS?

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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2017-04-12 14:41:04 UTC
For now the Genosis my be your best option, you get a very high level of versatility for minimal skill point investment which leaves more of your limited SP pool available for training support skills that you will need no matter what ship you fly.

Gila is a fun ship and level 4 capable but it has a very high entry point SP wise and it is not even close to the best option.
If you are looking cruiser class ships the Ishtar can be a better option, what little it gives up to the Gila in some areas it more than makes up for with the larger drones bay and bonuses to all drones not just to the mediums. Perhaps the best reason to go Ishtar is sentry drones which the Gila cannot use effectively due to small drones bay and insufficient control band width.

Raven is a tried an true lower SP level 4 ship, however I always preferred the Navy variant it just fit me better than the standard version. Overall you cannot go wrong with either.

As you look long term towards level 4 missions as a source of ISK you have to decide if you are going to blitz, full clear loot / salvage or some combination. Good blitz ships like the Machariel are not very good at full clear, while the Marauders that are excellent at full clear and not very good for blitz.


Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#22 - 2017-04-13 03:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Alasdan Helminthauge
Donnachadh wrote:
Gila is a fun ship and level 4 capable but it has a very high entry point SP wise and it is not even close to the best option.
If you are looking cruiser class ships the Ishtar can be a better option, what little it gives up to the Gila in some areas it more than makes up for with the larger drones bay and bonuses to all drones not just to the mediums. Perhaps the best reason to go Ishtar is sentry drones which the Gila cannot use effectively due to small drones bay and insufficient control band width.


Isn't Ishtar more SP-demanding than Gila? Besides the basic support skills, for Ishtar, you need Gallente Cruisers (where V is a must), Energy Grid Upgrades (V must), HACs, Light Drones Operation, Heavy Drones Operation/Sentry Drones Operation, totally 19x; for Gila, you need Caldari Cruisers, Light Drones Operation and Medium Drones Operation, totally 8x, or plus Light Missiles and Gallente Cruisers if you also want to use missiles, totally 14x.
And you don't need sentry drones and range tank on a cruiser, because you can speed tank those battleships well. If you're using Ishtar in lv4s, heavy drones are better because of both better basic damage and better damage bonus.
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#23 - 2017-04-13 13:36:15 UTC
My advice... start with the drake. BC to IV from scratch should take you less than a week of training... that's a small enough detour as to not matter when you move away from the Drake to other things.

After that... train into T2 missiles and T2 small and medium drones (all racial drone specs to 3). Once you have those... switch to the Gila. It will complete missions much faster than your drake did... but the drone skills are needed. While level 5 for both cruiser skills (Caldari/Gallente) is nice... you will be fine with level 4 unless the Gila is something you want to specialize in.

But I wouldn't specialize... I'd train Cal and Gal BS to IV, Sentry and Heavy T2 drones and basic cruise missile skills... and switch to the Rattlesnake. The rattlesnake (with the right fittings) is capable of soloing 10/10 DED complexes... and even with sub-par fittings it can tear through L4 missions. I'd argue that should be your end-game.

The other way to go through it would be to go to Raven (and possibly Raven Navy Issue) then go to rattlesnake. But it's important to note that the drone skills are more important for RS damage than missile skills. It's probably easiest to come up through the gallente ship like.... Vexor then VNI or Myrmidon then Dominix then Rattlesnake.
Nyx Nirvana
Aideron Robotics
Federation Uprising
#24 - 2017-04-14 20:01:28 UTC
Alicia Dnari wrote:
Are you looking at what you can do once you've gone Omega, or at what you can do now as an Alpha? If the latter, I think you're looking at level 3 missions at best, and at, as someone upthread suggested, a Gnosis, which is the only BC you can fly. Another possibilty is a Navy cruiser (whichever one(s) are available to your race). Once you start doing that, you might look at what you need to train for ships not currently available to you. Most of the "mastery" skills for any subcapital (except large weapons) you should already have, but there may be some holes to fill in. Once you go Omega, of course, you can train whatever you need. Racial BC if you're still doing L3s, or Racial BS if you want to go to fours. Alternatives for 4s: T3 cruiser, HAC, Marauders. You can cross-train other racial ships, which will also give you faction ships, but that can take a while, particularly if you're not interested in actually flying the lower level ships, but just want to get to lvl 4s ASAP. As to which is "best", that's really a matter of personal preference. I've never had any problem sticking to the T1 progression Michael DeCrimson mentions above.

Looking at what I can do once I omega. Just wondering going from a fully trained alpha which ship I should aim to train initially
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#25 - 2017-04-14 21:31:39 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
I believe RLMLs on a gila do indeed have better application than RHMLs on a battleship... your point?

Also you didnt deal with the gate restriction issue...

My point is that RHML on a raven will have the same application and higher dps than HML on a drake. Of course RLML are going to have better application

I've only seen one gate restriction and I think it was a frig/dessy only, you'd want a frig anyways as all you do is drop something off and warp out.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#26 - 2017-04-15 14:48:49 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Isn't Ishtar more SP-demanding than Gila? Besides the basic support skills, for Ishtar, you need Gallente Cruisers (where V is a must), Energy Grid Upgrades (V must), HACs, Light Drones Operation, Heavy Drones Operation/Sentry Drones Operation, totally 19x; for Gila, you need Caldari Cruisers, Light Drones Operation and Medium Drones Operation, totally 8x, or plus Light Missiles and Gallente Cruisers if you also want to use missiles, totally 14x.
And you don't need sentry drones and range tank on a cruiser, because you can speed tank those battleships well. If you're using Ishtar in lv4s, heavy drones are better because of both better basic damage and better damage bonus.

To maximize the Gila where a significant portion of it's damage comes from thermal or kinetic missiles Gallente cruiser 5 should be considered a requirement especially for level 4 missions. While the BS may not do much damage due to speed the frigates, destroyers and the cruisers in the pockets will take a serious toll on your tank so the resist bonus per level makes the Caldari skill a virtual requirement as well. Again because a significant portion of your damage comes from missiles training all applicable missile skills to level 5 adds a significant amount of time to training for the Gila. In the end, and considering starting from a brand new character the Ishtar and the Gila are remarkably close in training time requirements.

Looking at your list you have skills listed for the Ishtar that are not specifically needed.
Both heavy and medium drone skills are entirely optional for a pilot using an Ishtar for any level of missions.
Because nearly instant switching for range, damage type and damage mitigation sentry drones have more damage applied over time even though they have less paper damage than the heavies. And we have not started to talk about travel times that not only eliminate any paper DPS advantage the heavies may have but actually turn the equation in favor of the sentry drones.
When it comes to smaller things what the Garde cannot handle because of tracking issues lights are generally a better option anyway so having medium drones is not required. In fact given many of the NPC proclivity for shooting drones I find a set of armor maintenance bots are a much better alternative than mediums allowing you to repair drones between pockets or groups more quickly and efficiently than using remote reps from your highs alone.

And that leads me to the final advantage the Ishtar has over the Gila. Since the Ishtar has no bonuses to a hull mounted weapons system flying one with no guns at all is a viable option which frees up high slots for whatever a pilot wants to use, with the Gila you loose to much of your damage to even consider not filling your highs with missile launchers.

In the end both ships are capable but neither one of them is even close to the "best" option for level 4 missions. They are more like I am bored let's try something that puts a little more challenge into these type of ships.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#27 - 2017-04-15 15:14:16 UTC
Did I list the Medium Drone Operation in the Ishtar's list? And I only count Heavy Drone Operation OR Sentry Drone Operation, or the Ishtar's total training multiplier would be 24x. You don't need Gallente Cruisers V and Caldari Cruisers V to sit in a gila or fly it effectively. Both at IV are ok. If you haven't trained any missile skills, then Gila would take a bit longer to train though. (I assumed you have trained all the support skills in my former post.)
I still think heavies are better for Ishtar. If you use sentry drones, you must sit there or your drones may die even faster than the heavy drones. If you sit there still, you can't speed tank those battleships, and then your tank may not be enough. If you want to range tank with sentries, then you should consider use Eos or Dominix, because Ishtar cannot use MJD (and those 2 ships have double bonus to sentry drones' damage). Ishtar have a good bonus to heavy drones' speed, and if you think they're still too slow, use geckos.
For challenges, I often use a VNI for some lv4 missions, and it works pretty well :D
Orin Solette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2017-04-15 18:21:29 UTC
L3 missions are ridiculously short. You should take a ship that warps around quickly because that will take as much time as it will to kill any rats at the sites. And something else to do on the side because some missions will have you wait around for spawns.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#29 - 2017-04-16 17:35:29 UTC
Orin Solette wrote:
L3 missions are ridiculously short. You should take a ship that warps around quickly because that will take as much time as it will to kill any rats at the sites. And something else to do on the side because some missions will have you wait around for spawns.

quick warps and good damage application at various ranges, which is why warp speed t3cs and machs are the best

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-04-17 10:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
A plus vote for the Gila, very effective at l3 missions, focus on the scrambling webbing ships first and then go to town. Rlml tear through those. T1 missiles and T1 missile launchers with gallente4 is quite sufficient if your drone skills for mediums are decent but caldari5 and T2 purgers are highly recommended. It is also able to work with blitzing L4 missions as well if one is very alert, but not ideal for that role. A tengu is a significantly better choice.

For L3 I actually prefer my max skilled Gila to a max skill machariel, or tengu. It is not so efficient, but everyone has there own preferences.

Edit, If you can afford a gila, why bother with a drake?
Lrrp
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2017-04-22 13:53:33 UTC
Another ship you might consider is the fleet Typhoon. It has a generous drone bay where you can load wardens and lights. You can also fit cruise missiles for lvl 4's. It has a 7.5% bonus for heavy projectiles and for heavies, cruise and torps. For lvl. 3's you could fit the heavies and fill the drone bay (200 m3) with light and mediums. While it is more expensive than the Raven it is more versatile also. I've used the fleet Phoon in null doing anomalies and for high sec lvl 4's. The FIT is more versatile than most of the other BS and somthine you may want to look at, especially if you plan on sticking with the game.
Alaric Faelen
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2017-04-29 16:10:56 UTC
Well my usual response would be get a T3 cruiser, and just keep using that in L4's. But CCP announced incoming nerf-hammer for them so I'd go with HAC or pirate cruiser.

The problem with moving into battleships is doing it at a low skill level really gimps your fits and functionality. It's almost always better to fly something smaller well than it is to fly something bigger poorly. The benefits of moving into that larger hull are offset by doing so with poor skills, and the training becomes very long when you want T2 everything.

BC's are another option to stick with medium sized weapons, saving on the training for T2 large. I just don't feel that they stand out enough in a crowded field of contenders. Likewise, T3D's will handle many of the L3 missions (and a couple L4s) but when advancing to L4, you'll really want to either have strong medium weapon skills, or get into large size weaponry.

Drone boats really offer the most versatility. Sentry drones for anything bigger than a frig, and usually a flight of lights to deal with those. There is a bunch of drone skills that need trained, but if you're looking to invest training time into moving up in content, consider training up drone skills. Drones are also handy when you are facing EWAR like jams.
Mark Remillard
The Mental Man Project
#33 - 2017-05-22 18:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Remillard
As evidenced by earlier posts, there are numerous viable answers to the question. I am not going to speak to the ideal ship/hull question (as others have addressed it).

I am more curious about the "I am an alpha right now" part of your post. The "or Low-SP BS" implies that you are a newer account (further evidenced by being an alpha). Level 4 missions have a significant difficulty bump compared to level 1-3's. Depending on your skills, it may be better (from an income standpoint) to stay in 3's for a while.

1) Download a ship fitting app like EFt or Pyfa.
2) See if you can build a battleship of: Damage Output+ Active Tank* >= 1000*
3) If you achieve that benchmark , you are ready for level 4's
4) If not, it might be better to stay in level 3's

You can arguably get by with less but it is no longer a clear Income boost compared to running 3's. Please Note: running level 4's with cruisers is a different set of math (and tactics). I wont speak to it because I lack decent experience with it.
Mark Remillard
The Mental Man Project
#34 - 2017-05-22 18:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Remillard
Second Response (post):

What are you planning to do in addition to running missions? That question will help identify what route you should go.

1) If the secondary goal is High-Sec Group PVE (incursions): train into the Machariel, Vindicator or Nightmare Battleships
2) If the secondary goal is Low Sec PVP (or faction warfare), pay attention to frigate and destroyer hulls.
3) If you are planning an eventual null sec or wormhole space move: pay attention to the various cruisers.


Outside of null-sec alliance warfare, Battleships and Battle-cruiser's are mostly used only for running PVE missions. You will get burned out quickly if that is all you ever do in-game.


Edit: (regarding Incursions):

Caladari Battleships (and missile weapons) are not desired for running incursions. However, the Caldari logistics cruiser, Basilisk, is. One of the requirements to fly is Caldari cruisers V, a requirement shared with the strategic (T3) and heavy assault cruiser......
Mark Remillard
The Mental Man Project
#35 - 2017-05-22 19:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Remillard
Nyx Nirvana wrote:
Zarek Kree wrote:
A Jackdaw, Drake or Raven are all viable options with different advantages/disadvantages. The Drake and Raven are pretty versatile PvE ships and you can't go wrong with either. The Jackdaw is far less versatile for PvE but comes with the advantage of being a good PvP ship if you're ever so inclined. If it were me, I'd get the Drake and then move up to a Raven later.

I'll throw one more option out as well. If you want to delay going Omega a bit longer, you can run L3s in a Gnosis (a BC without skill requirements, so an alpha can fly it).


Gnosis is a nice idea, but it's pretty pricey at the moment. I might give it a try.

Do you know if a Raven can actually run L3s successfully, or otherwise?

Thanks for the help :)



Price is an important thing to consider.

Gnosis (BC an alpha can fly) ` 40 Million ISK
Drake (Caldari) ` 40 Million ISK
Raven (Caldari Battleship) ` 150 Million ISK
Gila (Pirate Faction Cruiser) ` 200 Million ISK
Rattlesnake (Pirate Faction BS) ` 350 Miilion ISK

T3 Cruiser ` ??? Isk

This is just for the Ship hull, does not include modules.
Ragnar Danskjold
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2017-05-30 01:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnar Danskjold
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The basic rule for ship class verses mission levels :

Level 1 = Frigate, Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Carrier, Fleet with logistics

Personally I like T3 Cruisers, they are very versatile and can fit a better defense than most other ships in their class and higher. They can put out enough DPS to take down most NPC's quickly and easily. Some NPC's may take a little bit of time but due to T3's defensive stats, they can stay engaged and wear down the defense of tough NPC's.

T3 Cruisers can be refit for numerous careers, everything from cloaky scout to exploration. The only drawback is they can't enter DED 3/10 and 4/10 exploration sites. The main problem with using T3 Cruiser in PvP is when it gets destroyed, you lose one level of a trained sub-system skill. However the saving grace of T3 Cruisers is the sub-system skills don't take very long to train up.


DMC


its more like

Level 1= anything that can fit a weapon
Level 2= T1 frigate/DD
Level 3= CL
Level 4= MJD CH or BB, BB typically faster

you want to use the fastest ship possible for each mission, this means research the damage types so you can stack against those and know which type is best to use yourself. This allows you to bring smaller classes of ship to do the same mission. T1 CL's can easily run L3's, for the OP id suggest an RLM Caracal and you can start them even as an alpha.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#37 - 2017-05-30 15:13:38 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The basic rule for ship class verses mission levels :

Level 1 = Frigate, Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Carrier, Fleet with logistics

Personally I like T3 Cruisers, they are very versatile and can fit a better defense than most other ships in their class and higher. They can put out enough DPS to take down most NPC's quickly and easily. Some NPC's may take a little bit of time but due to T3's defensive stats, they can stay engaged and wear down the defense of tough NPC's.

T3 Cruisers can be refit for numerous careers, everything from cloaky scout to exploration. The only drawback is they can't enter DED 3/10 and 4/10 exploration sites. The main problem with using T3 Cruiser in PvP is when it gets destroyed, you lose one level of a trained sub-system skill. However the saving grace of T3 Cruisers is the sub-system skills don't take very long to train up.


DMC


its more like

Level 1= anything that can fit a weapon
Level 2= T1 frigate/DD
Level 3= CL
Level 4= MJD CH or BB, BB typically faster

you want to use the fastest ship possible for each mission, this means research the damage types so you can stack against those and know which type is best to use yourself. This allows you to bring smaller classes of ship to do the same mission. T1 CL's can easily run L3's, for the OP id suggest an RLM Caracal and you can start them even as an alpha.


You can save the time of travelling by bringing a smaller ship, but you will lose the time by killing the rats slower. Why don't you try to do some non-blitzable lv4s in an interceptor? It's the fastest ship available in game and I think with good player skill you should be able to speed tank it.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#38 - 2017-05-30 15:45:34 UTC
there is an obvious trade off with travel time and kill speed, one of the main reasons the mach does so well is it has great travel time and kill speed. For newer players kill speed is usually the limiting factor. going up usually gives you more damage and range, there is typically also a cost of application and travel time.

back when I was grinding standings with some new corp I went out in a frigate and ran one level one which gave lv2 access and since I was already there I decided to try a few missions in my frig. they went mostly well until I got to the blockade. none of the rats were an issue it was the permajam meaning I couldn't hit anything. also the very long ranges in that mission meant I spent a lot of time not doing anything. I went back to station grabbed a warp speed ishtar and annihilated the mission. I traded a little warp speed for a ton of damage and range and completed missions much quicker.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Ragnar Danskjold
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2017-05-31 04:17:31 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The basic rule for ship class verses mission levels :

Level 1 = Frigate, Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Carrier, Fleet with logistics

Personally I like T3 Cruisers, they are very versatile and can fit a better defense than most other ships in their class and higher. They can put out enough DPS to take down most NPC's quickly and easily. Some NPC's may take a little bit of time but due to T3's defensive stats, they can stay engaged and wear down the defense of tough NPC's.

T3 Cruisers can be refit for numerous careers, everything from cloaky scout to exploration. The only drawback is they can't enter DED 3/10 and 4/10 exploration sites. The main problem with using T3 Cruiser in PvP is when it gets destroyed, you lose one level of a trained sub-system skill. However the saving grace of T3 Cruisers is the sub-system skills don't take very long to train up.


DMC


its more like

Level 1= anything that can fit a weapon
Level 2= T1 frigate/DD
Level 3= CL
Level 4= MJD CH or BB, BB typically faster

you want to use the fastest ship possible for each mission, this means research the damage types so you can stack against those and know which type is best to use yourself. This allows you to bring smaller classes of ship to do the same mission. T1 CL's can easily run L3's, for the OP id suggest an RLM Caracal and you can start them even as an alpha.


You can save the time of travelling by bringing a smaller ship, but you will lose the time by killing the rats slower. Why don't you try to do some non-blitzable lv4s in an interceptor? It's the fastest ship available in game and I think with good player skill you should be able to speed tank it.


Nice reductio ad absurdum at that strawman there. When I was referring to fastest ship possible I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

If you research the correct damage types you will be able to kill the rats plenty fast in a Lvl3 in a T1 CL as a T1 CH. So why bring a slow ship when you can bring a faster one that costs less to fully fit than the hull price of a heavier ship. Furthermore T1 CL's can be flown by Alphas so I was pointing out that in addition to being more cost effective, the OP does not even have to wait to begin them.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#40 - 2017-05-31 08:18:37 UTC
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Ragnar Danskjold wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The basic rule for ship class verses mission levels :

Level 1 = Frigate, Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Carrier, Fleet with logistics

Personally I like T3 Cruisers, they are very versatile and can fit a better defense than most other ships in their class and higher. They can put out enough DPS to take down most NPC's quickly and easily. Some NPC's may take a little bit of time but due to T3's defensive stats, they can stay engaged and wear down the defense of tough NPC's.

T3 Cruisers can be refit for numerous careers, everything from cloaky scout to exploration. The only drawback is they can't enter DED 3/10 and 4/10 exploration sites. The main problem with using T3 Cruiser in PvP is when it gets destroyed, you lose one level of a trained sub-system skill. However the saving grace of T3 Cruisers is the sub-system skills don't take very long to train up.


DMC


its more like

Level 1= anything that can fit a weapon
Level 2= T1 frigate/DD
Level 3= CL
Level 4= MJD CH or BB, BB typically faster

you want to use the fastest ship possible for each mission, this means research the damage types so you can stack against those and know which type is best to use yourself. This allows you to bring smaller classes of ship to do the same mission. T1 CL's can easily run L3's, for the OP id suggest an RLM Caracal and you can start them even as an alpha.


You can save the time of travelling by bringing a smaller ship, but you will lose the time by killing the rats slower. Why don't you try to do some non-blitzable lv4s in an interceptor? It's the fastest ship available in game and I think with good player skill you should be able to speed tank it.


Nice reductio ad absurdum at that strawman there. When I was referring to fastest ship possible I was referring to clear speed as well as travel speed, the entire turnaround time of a mission from acceptance to turn in. note the for each mission part of the statement.

If you research the correct damage types you will be able to kill the rats plenty fast in a Lvl3 in a T1 CL as a T1 CH. So why bring a slow ship when you can bring a faster one that costs less to fully fit than the hull price of a heavier ship. Furthermore T1 CL's can be flown by Alphas so I was pointing out that in addition to being more cost effective, the OP does not even have to wait to begin them.


Tell me how much dps your caracal has and I'll compare it with my cyclone. You should already use the damage type the rats are most vulnerable to whatever you are flying, so this is actually not a bonus. If you can really do those missions easily, then the ship cost doesnt matter too much, because you would almost never lose it. As for the alphas, I really doubt whether they can survive all those lv3s in a T1 cruiser without retreating.
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