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Solution to AFK Cloakers?

First post
Author
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#21 - 2017-07-15 13:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ImYourMom
Black Pedro wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:
All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.

wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix?

There is nothing to be fixed. AFK cloaking is working as intended. CCP intends for nullsec to have risk, and while they seem to be failing a bit at that with how safe ratting and mining has become there, they certainly aren't going to make nullsec more safe by removing cloaky camping as a tactic to harass your opponents.

I think the traditional advice for you is to "get gud", both in defending your space in nullsec, and in your ability to post suggestions in the forums in the proper place.


Stop, please just stop right there. CCP even state they know it s a problem. The problem aint afk cloaking, its the fact they can cyno in caps etc. Sorry i disagree wholeheartedly with your comments, we clearly and MANY others dont either....
Oh and someone who hides in highsec, and does lame ganking really hasnt got a clue what hes talking about.

Why dont you come do some proper pvp?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#22 - 2017-07-15 13:28:46 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.

That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread.



Oh cmon with that stupid comment, honestly wtf... go play another game if you think that. 496 pages means theres a problem and even ccp states its a problem. it is a problem.



Uh, when have CCP ever said that?

486 pages of a small handful of mewling candyasses who refuse to quit crying. HTFU.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#23 - 2017-07-15 14:28:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off.

No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally).



How exactly does that force any sort of non-consensual action on the cloaker?


You can't make him attack. You can't make him run. You can't make him do anything he does not want to do.

All you can do is raise his barrier of entry to initiate an attack--- wasting everyone's time. Or you can leave. Either way, he won uncontested.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#24 - 2017-07-15 14:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
ImYourMom wrote:
Stop, please just stop right there. CCP even state they know it s a problem. The problem aint afk cloaking, its the fact they can cyno in caps etc. Sorry i disagree wholeheartedly with your comments, we clearly and MANY others dont either....
Sigh. Everyone acknowledges that cloaky camping is not ideal, but every single time when CCP discusses it, they point out that the problem that nullsec is suppose to be dangerous and they are not happy with the intel, and thus safety afforded by local and view cloaky camping as a counter to that.

Do you really think, that if it was as simple as making cloaks turn off after some time, CCP might have gotten around to fixing it sometime in the last decade? Just kept slipping their mind, huh? If you are going with that, you must be more simple than your name would lead one to believe.

You are suppose to be at risk. You are not suppose to be able to 100% secure your space. It's all working as intended. Feel free to continue to impotently whine on these forums, but there is not going to be a fix for cloaky camping that is so one-side and carebear friendly as to make nullsec PvE near invulnerable. A fix, if and when it ever comes, will put some risk into your nullsec grinding, not just make the "bad people" who scare you go away, and that is something this game desperately needs at this point.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2017-07-15 14:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
ImYourMom wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off.

No option to force interaction or a fight? Put ratting ships out and fit them properly and with a cyno and have a defense fleet ready, something that you have to have ready these days in any case because of all the Rorqs. If they don't bite, you can keep ratting, if they bite, you have your fight and they get dunked (ideally).

You know that they fit cynos, and cynos jump in caps or blops etc? You know that right?

I am well aware. I live in Null sec and I (used to) bait hunters regularly. It does not matter what they bring if you know it beforehand. That may require a sacrifice or two of your own to find out, it may only require a look at their killboard. It obviously also means that you need to know your surroundings and at least know from how far away BLOPS/caps can reach you or if there is a WH in the area with known droppers. Furthermore, not every cloaky camper has cynos, some just sit in your system to psychologically prevent you from doing something or make your defense fleets feel bored. Some cloaky campers are also completely useless because they sit somewhere in a ship that cannot warp cloaked, in other words, you know when they do something because you see them coming.

I have done some extensive note taking on campers/hunters in my ratting areas and can tell with a great level of confidence what someone is going to do. This also helps a lot against cloaky campers. Obviously, having competent neighbors who check signature for wormholes, roll them, or sacrifice themselves to campers so that you can find out what's going on helps a lot.

@SurrenderMonkey
It got mentioned again last Fanfest in one of the panels and (recollection from memory) Fozzy's team admitted that the camping in itself is not a problem but the psychological barrier it creates is problematic, and that they are thinking about how to tackle this.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#26 - 2017-07-15 16:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
-1 - there is no problem to be solved, that is why CCP has done nothing about it in the 7 years I have been in this game.

Going with my standard here, you cannot see them, you cannot scan them, how do you know the player controlling that ship is AFK?

ImYourMom wrote:
wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix?

Been in EvE since 2010 and people have been complaining about AFK cloakers since I started.
Yes you are right cap use would be simple to do, and over the over the years it has been suggested many times. Other people have suggested timers of one sort or another, heat build up in the module from use ultimately leading to failure due to overheating. Changing the probes back to a time when you could scan cloaked ships or adding a new type of probe that can only detect cloaked ships. And yet others have gone with a module or probes that can scan for heat with the logic being that any ship and it's systems would create heat and that heat could be easily detected against the cold backdrop of empty space. Still others have suggested magnetic anomaly detection systems like those used to hunt submarines in real life. So let us look at this from a different perspective.
Several of these would be extremely simple to implement (cap and heat specifically).
People have been suggesting them for all my time in the game.
Any or all of them would control this AFK cloaking scourge you speak of.
Despite how easy many of these would be to implement CCP has chosen NOT to do any of them.
Simple elementary level logic dictates that there is only one answer here.

CCP DOES not consider AFK cloaking to be a problem they need to solve. Which gets me back to where I started -1 to your idea it simply is not needed.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
@SurrenderMonkey
It got mentioned again last Fanfest in one of the panels and (recollection from memory) Fozzy's team admitted that the camping in itself is not a problem but the psychological barrier it creates is problematic, and that they are thinking about how to tackle this.

And I for one hope they never change it because messing with people minds leads to mistakes that you can capitalize on, and capitalizing on those mistakes leads to really pretty explosions in space. Besides it is just plain fun to sit in a harmless ship and scare the hell out of these nul sec players and then watch them scurry away like mice or cockroaches when you turn on the lights.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#27 - 2017-07-15 17:59:02 UTC
Empire Raider wrote:
Playing dumb wont earn you any points. You know very well why it's a problem.


I actually don't. I'm in a fleet and on comms all the time I'm outside of HS. I always have a point fit to my PvE ships, so if I'm tackled I just lock the guy down, ask for help and 15 seconds later the fleet shows up and gets a kill.

Standard doctrine for mining ships includes a point, yes you lose some yield, but you're not in HS. Fit your ships to defend yourself.
Cindy the Sewer
Radiation Sickness
#28 - 2017-07-16 18:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy the Sewer
Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!

btw....

YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !

CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO !

Searing destruction of your viewpoint is incoming and no you won't win the discussion or even walk away with anything resembling a win, so bail out early or suffer repeated embarrassments. You have been warned.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2017-07-16 18:24:23 UTC
How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.

You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.

While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:

1) Killing ships
2) Killing ships
3) Killing ships

They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.

How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?

After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2017-07-16 23:01:30 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.


Weekend. And these are no longer the proper forums.
Isd's may be more focused on the discord forums.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#31 - 2017-07-17 03:26:49 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.

You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.

While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:

1) Killing ships
2) Killing ships
3) Killing ships

They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.

How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?

After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out.



You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system.

The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack.

And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again.

He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2017-07-17 04:21:14 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.

wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix?


You KNOW there is a dedicated thread for this and you post like a completely blinkered m0r0n?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-07-17 04:23:54 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There's no consensus that AFK cloakers are a problem. Better start with establishing that before you start coming up with a solution.

That aside, I doubt we can expect Big Things from you if you weren't bright enough to find the sticky thread.


Oh he saw the sticky thread, even has some posts there. This person is really, really, really stupid. That's all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#34 - 2017-07-17 09:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ImYourMom
Teckos Pech wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:
All cloaking modules to have a new cap drain amount attribute, once cloak is activated, cap depletes and eventually runs out and decloaks? any cap regen/ bonus mods are negated whilst cloaked, so that people cant just fill up on cap regen mods to overcome this.

wouldn't this just be an easy, simple fix?


You KNOW there is a dedicated thread for this and you post like a completely blinkered m0r0n?


Oh god look we have another one... yes and ive posted there afterwards, and i cant close threads smart ass... but you probably was TOO stupid to go look. Yet another eve troll who has nothing better to do, but to vent is child anger issues on forums. whats new. Oh its a Goon too #expected
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2017-07-17 12:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
And you created another redundant thread for the topic that has its own sticky. You should have posted your redundant stuff there regardless if it has been posted there already or not. This is, after all, precisely the point of this sticky: collect all the "original" ideas and solutions to AFK cloaking from people who are too lazy to search for already existing ideas and solutions and those who want to post their stuff anyways. Or you could have posted in the new forum, in order to take away the redundancy justification because it's a "fresh start". Oh, and before you go over there and post a new topic with your "original" idea: There is already an AFK collection topic going on on the new forums, so post your idea in that topic. Roll

That aside, you don't have to read through all the 500 pages. If you know how to use Google, you can make google/duckduckgo/bing/yahoo/etc do the work for you. Like this., which leads to several suggestions involving capacitor drawbacks for cloaking, even old collection topics for your "original" idea. Roll This search took me 2 minutes, by the way.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

kingduckling
The pie is a lie
#36 - 2017-07-17 13:37:28 UTC
OP you have failed to state what exactly is the problem with the Cloacking modules?
Is it all the cloacking modules? or maybe just the covops? how about combat recon ships?

Please articulate your reasoning.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2017-07-17 16:01:00 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
Cindy the Sewer wrote:
Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!

btw....

YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !

CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO !



Can you show me links to my particular idea please? I mean i could read every post in a 496 page thread, but you know I have a life, unlike yourself obviously, and really really dont have the time because RL > Eve. Oh i know, that's crazy right.
See you didnt post here to be helpful, what you did was post to try give yourself some troll epeen. Sad really that people need to do that to gain attention but meh..

Oh and for the record, no i dont agree with your views


Its linked in the first post in that thread. It really is. As a courtesy to forum users please don't post **** like this.

If you don't have the time for a five minute search then how do you have time to keep posting ****** replies in this ****** thread?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#38 - 2017-07-17 16:30:10 UTC
If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).

I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.

But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#39 - 2017-07-17 17:11:02 UTC
Scialt wrote:
If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).

I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.

But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell.


Go read the sticky and then slap yourself.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2017-07-17 19:57:38 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:



You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system.


And pray tell...how are they going to make this determination IF THEY ARE AFK? If there is nobody there they can't gather much intel now can they.

If they want to degrade the value of the system they have to stop you from utilizing that system. That can be countered. Ratting in a group, mining in a group. Having both going on at the same time so one group can support the other.

Quote:
The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack.


If they aren't at the keyboard then what is the problem? Oh right, you can't tell and that level of uncertainty means you have absolutely zero recourse. None at all. You can't rat in a group and switch up your fit to be more pvp combat effective. Nope, in fact the fitting window no longer works once an AFK camper is in system. Roll

Quote:
And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again.


Or you could rat in a group in fleet.

Quote:
He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid.


How is flying in a fleet of PvP ships and ratting stupid if you have an AFK cloaker there? If you own an entire region how is moving systems stupid? It is unlikely they are going to take just one system...and hey, if they do fantastic now I can get in a fleet and have a fight.

The real problem here is, Mike, you simply want to rat as if you were playing on Sisi...frankly you should just rat there.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online