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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

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Salvos Rhoska
#341 - 2017-05-28 15:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Gimme Sake wrote:
Now, really, do we need more spread sheets?


Its not more spreadsheets.

Its just two more columns in the existing Contract UI that show the pickup/destination structure type of the contract.

EVE is spreadsheet porn, anyways. This is nothing new or revolutionary.
Just easier access to data that is already available.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2017-05-28 16:28:55 UTC
I find that little red exclamation sign in contract listing being very obvious.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#343 - 2017-05-28 16:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Gimme Sake wrote:
I find that little red exclamation sign in contract listing being very obvious.


Sure.

But vertically sortable structure types in pickup/delivery columns in the Contract UI is even better.
Far more user friendly than the current UI, as well as allowing sorting by type.
Its the same information, just more accessible in the UI.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Aedaxus
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#344 - 2017-05-28 20:26:31 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
I find that little red exclamation sign in contract listing being very obvious.

It would be comfortable if there was a "I am not interested by those exclamated orders at all, please provide a switch so I can filter them like people could on every PC and MAC in the 1980's. I hope we evolved in the future, not devolved. I can right click scam spammers in local, it makes trade hub chat so much more enjoyable. I can select "only show contracts with destinations in "high sec" if I don't want to do business with "low sec" or "null sec" dwellers.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2017-05-28 21:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Coralas wrote:
(a) the hauler has to have a credible history of hauling for public contracts to get scammed in the first place, and they have to have hauling ships, the history of acquiring them etc.

(b) the customer has have an alt controlling a citadel.

(c) plausible deniability doesn't mean squat to a game GM. They'll still take the currency from the scammer (an actual scammer wouldn't care much but an RMT customer would be hugely irritated after paying money, jumping through all the ingame hoops and failing).

(d) the contracts hang around forever, which is the kinda thing you don't want when avoiding things that are detected by audiit based systems.


a) No. The hauler just has to fail to identify it as a citadel destination. Once the contract is accepted, the contract issuer knows the name of the contractee. Its a matter of a few clicks to block them access, systemically failing the contract.



character->show contracts, public history is right there of failed contracts. You can't go on repeatedly failing hauling contracts with an alt, without that alt being burned. If you use it for 3 or 4 customers you are going to wind up burning those 3 or 4 customers. making an alt for every customer, is also going to stand out in other ways. its extremely time consuming/inconvenient to build a plausible alt to fail the occasional contract, since we can also see their hauling earnings.

Quote:


b) Oh wow. Controlling a Citadel? So what when you deal in billions of RMT.
And btw, the same ploy can be performed on an NPC station, simply by the RMT supplier never delivering the cargo, thus causing a failure and collateral payment to the RMT purchaser. It just lacks the additional layer of plausible deniability offered by blocking the contractee.



aye because thats like 48 hours before the money arrives, and lots of money in space to get money. its plainly rather inconvenient, and the kind of hoops that convenience customers aren't going to jump through. any time you make things complex for the customer, then they might as well buy plex.

Quote:


c) You are confusing the lockout scam, which is legit, with RTM which is IRL illegal and ingame extremely illegal.
Plausible deniability as explained in my post above, explains the difficulty of differentiating one from the other.



No I'm not confusing anything. This post however makes no sense whatsoever. Its not a problem for a GM to take isk back from a scammer regardless of what you think is a plausible denial. They are undoing 10 minutes of player work, not hours of ice mining or mission running or some other legitimate or dull task that the player is going to be game quitting angry about losing the proceeds from.

Quote:


d) All exchanges are logged. Doesnt matter if you make the exchange in space by jettison of equivalent value, or by direct isk transfer, or via the contrivances of being "plausibly" blocked from delivering a courier contract, or any other ingenious RMT transfer method.


these exchanges remain visible to other players who may feel the need to report the player concerned. ie its the worst place to do rmt because of the visibility.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#346 - 2017-05-28 21:16:40 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

c) You are confusing the lockout scam, which is legit, with RTM which is IRL illegal and ingame extremely illegal.
Just to clarify a point. RMT is perfectly legal in this game as long as you do it through official CCP channels. That is by buying PLEX for real money and selling it for ISK.

I've said plenty on that topic in the past and it's outside the scope of this thread, so I'll not argue it here. Just correcting a common error people have about RMT and the game.

Mr Epeen Cool
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#347 - 2017-05-28 22:19:43 UTC
Coralas wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Basically the current mechanics just invalidate the whole courier contract system when it comes to citadels.

That's a bit melodramatic.

That's like saying contract scams invalidate all contracts. They don't. They just mean you need to be cautious with what courier contracts you accept and there are plenty of Citadels that will never be set to anything other than Freeport.


A regular contract does what the contract states. The mechanics are solid and do not allow for the altering of terms after it has been accepted.


This is not the case with citadel courier contracts since one party can just instantly withdraw from the contract.



Market orders fail as well, ie this mechanism is essentially the same as another mechanism in game - ie it has precedent.

The contract mechanism works fine, and the contract selector gives you ample warning of the risk. If there was a contract where docking rights was being sold, then _that_ contract system would be broken if docking rights weren't conferred. These are not that.



Right, the margin trading scam is an example.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2017-05-28 22:21:53 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Coralas wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control acces to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.


Did I get that right?


A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.




Yes, but you can always justify with "it was a scam".


Really? You think CCP is that stupid?

CCP: "We suspect of you RMTing via contracts."

RMTer: "No, it was a scam, honest."

CCP: "Fifty three times? Were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you just play while blind drunk?"


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aedaxus
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2017-05-28 22:51:11 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

CCP: "We suspect of you RMTing via contracts."
RMTer: "No, it was a scam, honest."
CCP: "Fifty three times? Were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you just play while blind drunk?"

RMTer: Scamming is allowed. I scammed myself. I have split personality disorder.
CCP: Ah okay then.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#350 - 2017-05-29 03:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Aedaxus wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

CCP: "We suspect of you RMTing via contracts."
RMTer: "No, it was a scam, honest."
CCP: "Fifty three times? Were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you just play while blind drunk?"

RMTer: Scamming is allowed. I scammed myself. I have split personality disorder.
CCP: Ah okay then.
CCP: *permabans him*


Roll

Please don't full stupid.

Edit: Fixed it for you.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#351 - 2017-05-29 05:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Coralas wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control acces to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.


Did I get that right?


A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.




Yes, but you can always justify with "it was a scam".


Really? You think CCP is that stupid?

CCP: "We suspect of you RMTing via contracts."

RMTer: "No, it was a scam, honest."

CCP: "Fifty three times? Were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you just play while blind drunk?"





How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#352 - 2017-05-29 05:47:06 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Coralas wrote:


A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.




Yes, but you can always justify with "it was a scam".


Really? You think CCP is that stupid?

CCP: "We suspect of you RMTing via contracts."

RMTer: "No, it was a scam, honest."

CCP: "Fifty three times? Were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you just play while blind drunk?"





How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?

The other end (the out of game end) of an RMT transaction involves real money. CCP's security don't only look in game. They also look at out of game sites, etc. and link them back to characters.

If you do it once or twice, they'll probably never catch you. But by the 1053rd time, that's a lot of potential loose lips and structures in place to support it, so lots of potential to pop up on CCPs radar.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2017-05-29 06:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Gimme Sake wrote:


How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?


If this were real, people would be doing it, and you'd be showing us examples from the courier contracting market.

The unavoidable issue is the haulers contract histories.

Either the hauler is recycled and people have contract histories with recycled character partners or the haulers have ridiculous histories of failed hauls, or contracting pairs are being recycled - which honestly I can't imagine that an RMT seller could possibly count on clients to do reliably.

Whilst I was not _looking_ for RMT when I had a look at the hauling market because of this thread, I did however not come across haulers with no or unbelievable histories, nor did I come across scammers doing their first scam, nor did I come across deleted characters in contract histories (granted I haven't experimented to see what happens to contracts with a deleted partner).
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#354 - 2017-05-29 06:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Gimme Sake wrote:



How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?


They may or may not be able to spot the person selling the ISK, but they certainly can spot the repeat customer who is getting ISK and is repeatedly scamming...and who will give up the RMTer for lenient treatment.

And isn't this a fairly steep fixed cost just to get some illicit ISK?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#355 - 2017-05-29 06:20:02 UTC
Seriously, people should stop grasping at the RMT straw as some sort of Hail Mary sort of attempt to try and save their failed idea/proposal.

Argument 1---not very good.
Argument 2---not very convincing.
.
.
.
Argument N---RMT!

It is like a variant of Godwin's Law, when you have to invoke RMT you have truly lost.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#356 - 2017-05-29 06:25:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:



How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?


They may or may not be able to spot the person selling the ISK, but they certainly can spot the repeat customer who is getting ISK and is repeatedly scamming...and who will give up the RMTer for lenient treatment.

And isn't this a fairly steep fixed cost just to get some illicit ISK?



I can imagine a person who is repeatedly doing it would never use the same characters or even its own. He can use in game third party intermediaries. Which is rather inconspicuous. I would not suspect such an intermediary to suddenly become tormented by gaming ethos and report an irl or even in game financial gain.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#357 - 2017-05-29 06:31:40 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:



How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?


They may or may not be able to spot the person selling the ISK, but they certainly can spot the repeat customer who is getting ISK and is repeatedly scamming...and who will give up the RMTer for lenient treatment.

And isn't this a fairly steep fixed cost just to get some illicit ISK?



I can imagine a person who is repeatedly doing it would never use the same characters or even its own. He can use in game third party intermediaries. Which is rather inconspicuous. I would not suspect such an intermediary to suddenly become tormented by gaming ethos and report an irl or even in game financial gain.


Stop. Just stop. This is getting really dumb.

Joe: "Hey Bob can you do me a favor?"
Bob: "Sure, what do you need."
Joe: "Well, could you set up a citadel I'll loan you, then set up a scam courier contract for Roger. And when you get his collateral you send me the ISK?"
Bob: "Uhhhh....why?"
Joe: "Well I bought some ISK from him, but this is my second time, so I need you to launder it for me."

Yeah...no. I'm sure Bob will be thrilled to put his account on the line

Your fantastical claims are getting more convoluted and unbelievable as we go along.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#358 - 2017-05-29 06:38:26 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:



How can you prove it is rmt?

Valuable cargo, very high collateral, destination closed. Perfectly qualifying as an allowed scam. You can do it 1053 times.Why would ccp suspect you of doing rmt when you're just scamming? Why would ccp even get to suspect you of doing rmt, who would report you?


They may or may not be able to spot the person selling the ISK, but they certainly can spot the repeat customer who is getting ISK and is repeatedly scamming...and who will give up the RMTer for lenient treatment.

And isn't this a fairly steep fixed cost just to get some illicit ISK?



I can imagine a person who is repeatedly doing it would never use the same characters or even its own. He can use in game third party intermediaries. Which is rather inconspicuous. I would not suspect such an intermediary to suddenly become tormented by gaming ethos and report an irl or even in game financial gain.


Stop. Just stop. This is getting really dumb.

Joe: "Hey Bob can you do me a favor?"
Bob: "Sure, what do you need."
Joe: "Well, could you set up a citadel I'll loan you, then set up a scam courier contract for Roger. And when you get his collateral you send me the ISK?"
Bob: "Uhhhh....why?"
Joe: "Well I bought some ISK from him, but this is my second time, so I need you to launder it for me."

Yeah...no. I'm sure Bob will be thrilled to put his account on the line

Your fantastical claims are getting more convoluted and unbelievable as we go along.



20 bucks is 20 bucks. Maybe Bob would be thrilled to earn them. And if Bob's real name is Bobsky maybe he would do it for 5 bucks.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2017-05-29 06:42:24 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
20 bucks is 20 bucks. Maybe Bob would be thrilled to earn them. And if Bob's real name is Bobsky maybe he would do it for 5 bucks.



Are you trying to displace DrysonBennington on the forums?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#360 - 2017-05-29 06:44:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
20 bucks is 20 bucks. Maybe Bob would be thrilled to earn them. And if Bob's real name is Bobsky maybe he would do it for 5 bucks.



Are you trying to displace DrysonBennington on the forums?



No idea who that is.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato