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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

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Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2017-05-28 10:57:09 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Basically the current mechanics just invalidate the whole courier contract system when it comes to citadels.

That's a bit melodramatic.

That's like saying contract scams invalidate all contracts. They don't. They just mean you need to be cautious with what courier contracts you accept and there are plenty of Citadels that will never be set to anything other than Freeport.


A regular contract does what the contract states. The mechanics are solid and do not allow for the altering of terms after it has been accepted.


This is not the case with citadel courier contracts since one party can just instantly withdraw from the contract.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#322 - 2017-05-28 11:01:58 UTC
Aedaxus wrote:

Ah, nice angle. In the old days, RMT-ers just did a 'send ISK'.


Yeah, but you can not justify that in certain circumstances. A "donation" makes no sense when comming from an enemy "alliance" and it is easily spotted through an api check. That, of course, if enemy alliances still exist in the current political conjuncture in Eve.

On the other hand you can always claim you were drunk and got "scammed".

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Aedaxus
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#323 - 2017-05-28 11:05:55 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Aedaxus wrote:

Ah, nice angle. In the old days, RMT-ers just did a 'send ISK'.


Yeah, but you can not justify that in certain circumstances. A "donation" makes no sense when comming from an enemy "alliance" and it is easily spotted through an api check. That, of course, if enemy alliances still exist in the current political conjuncture in Eve.

On the other hand you can always claim you were drunk and got "scammed".

Ah, that is what those "double and triple my ISK" services are for! :D
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2017-05-28 11:20:00 UTC
Aedaxus wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Aedaxus wrote:

Ah, nice angle. In the old days, RMT-ers just did a 'send ISK'.


Yeah, but you can not justify that in certain circumstances. A "donation" makes no sense when comming from an enemy "alliance" and it is easily spotted through an api check. That, of course, if enemy alliances still exist in the current political conjuncture in Eve.

On the other hand you can always claim you were drunk and got "scammed".

Ah, that is what those "double and triple my ISK" services are for! :D



Yeah, but only the legit ones and here's where trust becomes a major game play element. Cool

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#325 - 2017-05-28 11:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
This thread isnt about RMT, nor is that related to Citadel contracting.
Please start a new one on that topic if you want to discuss it.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2017-05-28 12:03:08 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
This thread isnt about RMT, nor is that related to Citadel contracting.
Please start a new one on that topic if you want to discuss it.



You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#327 - 2017-05-28 12:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control access to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.

Result:
1) RMT purchaser issues private contract with collateral to RMT supplier, equivalent to their purchase.
2) RMT purchaser either contracts 1 carbon, or equivalent equity (as cover), and then blocks access to the pickup point by that private contract receiver (or not' depending on reliability of RMT supplier)
3) Contract fails, and isk in collateral is delivered to RMT purchaser.
4) Operation is covered by plausible deniability as:
--1) Access is controlled by the RMT purchaser to the pickup point, autonomously.
--2) 3rd party/alts obfuscate the exchange
--3) Nobody knows the actual value of the cargo in a courier contract until they accept it.

Did I get that right?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2017-05-28 13:27:47 UTC
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Basically the current mechanics just invalidate the whole courier contract system when it comes to citadels.

That's a bit melodramatic.

That's like saying contract scams invalidate all contracts. They don't. They just mean you need to be cautious with what courier contracts you accept and there are plenty of Citadels that will never be set to anything other than Freeport.


A regular contract does what the contract states. The mechanics are solid and do not allow for the altering of terms after it has been accepted.


This is not the case with citadel courier contracts since one party can just instantly withdraw from the contract.



Market orders fail as well, ie this mechanism is essentially the same as another mechanism in game - ie it has precedent.

The contract mechanism works fine, and the contract selector gives you ample warning of the risk. If there was a contract where docking rights was being sold, then _that_ contract system would be broken if docking rights weren't conferred. These are not that.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2017-05-28 13:32:01 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control acces to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.


Did I get that right?


A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#330 - 2017-05-28 13:35:13 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control acces to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.


Did I get that right?


Yes.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#331 - 2017-05-28 13:36:28 UTC
Coralas wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You can as well make payments through high collaterals.

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control acces to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.


Did I get that right?


A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.




Yes, but you can always justify with "it was a scam".

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#332 - 2017-05-28 13:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Coralas wrote:
A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.


Full finished post:

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control access to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.

Result:
1) RMT purchaser issues private contract with collateral to RMT supplier, equivalent to their purchase.
2) RMT purchaser either contracts 1 carbon, or equivalent equity (as cover), and then blocks access to the pickup point by that private contract receiver (or not' depending on reliability of RMT supplier)
3) Contract fails, and isk in collateral is delivered to RMT purchaser.
4) Operation is covered by plausible deniability as:
--1) Access is controlled by the RMT purchaser to the pickup point, autonomously.
--2) 3rd party/alts obfuscate the exchange
--3) Nobody knows the actual value of the cargo in a courier contract until they accept it.

Did I get that right?


Contracts are time restricted by the issuer.

That means the RMT purchaser can actualize the failure in delivery (thus receiving collateral) 24hrs after the RMT supplier accepts it.

As I pointed out above, if the the contract issuer (RMT purchaser) fills the courier contract with real value (or not) and changes access so they block that private courier contractee out, plausible deniability is achieved (ie: citadel scam), not to mention the fact courier contract accepters cant check the contents of the cargo anyways until they accept the contract.

The RMT suppilier will also be unable to backstab the RMT purchaser after accepting the private courier contract, regardless of whether its 1 unit of carbon or full equivalent value cargo. Nor will the courier contractee know the contents until they accept the contract and become liable to pay listed collateral.

As Gimme pointed put, its a very well hidden, and very convenient RMT opportunity.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#333 - 2017-05-28 14:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Coralas wrote:
A contract hangs around forever, ie its a bad place to launder objects because CCP can see the event months later, and so can we.


Full finished post:

Hmm, so deliberately fail a courier contract of carbon, so contractor receives x collateral, to launder the exchange of OOG cash payment for isk ingame.

So, in extremis, the contractor/contractee can mask detection of the OOG RMT, by the RMT purchaser issuing a private contract to the RMT supplier, and blocking the recipient from picking up the actual rough equivalent value from the pick up point (as a cover) hence leading to a systemic contract failure, assets/cargo remaining secured, and collateral being delivered to the RMT purchaser.

Furthermore, 3rd parties/alts can be used to obfuscate the RMT laundering even further.

Furthermore, since courier contractees cant see the contents of cargo before they accept the contract, nor control access to the pick up point or delivery point, there is plausible deniability throughout.

Result:
1) RMT purchaser issues private contract with collateral to RMT supplier, equivalent to their purchase.
2) RMT purchaser either contracts 1 carbon, or equivalent equity (as cover), and then blocks access to the pickup point by that private contract receiver (or not' depending on reliability of RMT supplier)
3) Contract fails, and isk in collateral is delivered to RMT purchaser.
4) Operation is covered by plausible deniability as:
--1) Access is controlled by the RMT purchaser to the pickup point, autonomously.
--2) 3rd party/alts obfuscate the exchange
--3) Nobody knows the actual value of the cargo in a courier contract until they accept it.

Did I get that right?


Contracts are time restricted by the issuer.
That means the RMT purchaser can actualize the failure in delivery (thus receiving collateral) 24hrs after the RMT supplier accepts it.



Basically you got it right. You can simply issue a contract on valuable stuff that nobody will bother to deliver (or will mime an attempt to deliver) because it isn't meant to be (delivered) due to collateral being use as rmt payment. As an extra caution measure you can block access to delivery point to make it look like a scam.

What will logs show in this case? "Legit" gameplay.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2017-05-28 14:32:02 UTC
(a) the hauler has to have a credible history of hauling for public contracts to get scammed in the first place, and they have to have hauling ships, the history of acquiring them etc.

(b) the customer has have an alt controlling a citadel.

(c) plausible deniability doesn't mean squat to a game GM. They'll still take the currency from the scammer (an actual scammer wouldn't care much but an RMT customer would be hugely irritated after paying money, jumping through all the ingame hoops and failing).

(d) the contracts hang around forever, which is the kinda thing you don't want when avoiding things that are detected by audiit based systems.
Salvos Rhoska
#335 - 2017-05-28 14:36:16 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
What will logs show in this case? "Legit" gameplay.


Yes.

It can be a nigh perfect cover for RMT.
Three+ layers of plausible deniability.

If its being used that way? I dont know.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#336 - 2017-05-28 14:41:08 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
What will logs show in this case? "Legit" gameplay.


Yes.

It can be a nigh perfect cover for RMT.
Three+ layers of plausible deniability.

If its being used that way? I dont know.



I merely pointed a plausible possibility.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Salvos Rhoska
#337 - 2017-05-28 14:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Coralas wrote:
(a) the hauler has to have a credible history of hauling for public contracts to get scammed in the first place, and they have to have hauling ships, the history of acquiring them etc.

(b) the customer has have an alt controlling a citadel.

(c) plausible deniability doesn't mean squat to a game GM. They'll still take the currency from the scammer (an actual scammer wouldn't care much but an RMT customer would be hugely irritated after paying money, jumping through all the ingame hoops and failing).

(d) the contracts hang around forever, which is the kinda thing you don't want when avoiding things that are detected by audiit based systems.


a) No. The hauler just has to fail to identify it as a citadel destination. Once the contract is accepted, the contract issuer knows the name of the contractee. Its a matter of a few clicks to block them access, systemically failing the contract.

b) Oh wow. Controlling a Citadel? So what when you deal in billions of RMT.
And btw, the same ploy can be performed on an NPC station, simply by the RMT supplier never delivering the cargo, thus causing a failure and collateral payment to the RMT purchaser. It just lacks the additional layer of plausible deniability offered by blocking the contractee.

c) You are confusing the lockout scam, which is legit, with RTM which is IRL illegal and ingame extremely illegal.
Plausible deniability as explained in my post above, explains the difficulty of differentiating one from the other.

d) All exchanges are logged. Doesnt matter if you make the exchange in space by jettison of equivalent value, or by direct isk transfer, or via the contrivances of being "plausibly" blocked from delivering a courier contract, or any other ingenious RMT transfer method.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2017-05-28 14:57:40 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


That requires clicking the destination or opening the contract details, and doesnt specify the destination structure type.


If its in highsec and says the destination may by inaccessible that means its a citadel. If you don't even bother to open the contract to look at the details then frankly you deserve everything that's coming to you.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

There is plenty of space to the right of the contract spreadsheet layout to add a column sortable by destination structure type.


We don't need it, the info is already there.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

This change would just improve the spreadsheet functionality for all contracts.


Its a change for the sake of a change. We already have the info we need.
Salvos Rhoska
#339 - 2017-05-28 15:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Its a change for the sake of a change. We already have the info we need.


Its an improvement to the Contract spreadsheet UI, and for more direct access to information that is already available.

Its just one more column in the Contract spreadsheet that shows the destination structure type.

Its not for sake of change, its for purposes of improvement to the UI so as to access the info we need.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#340 - 2017-05-28 15:12:57 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its a change for the sake of a change. We already have the info we need.


Its an improvement to the Contract spreadsheet UI, and for more direct access to information that is already available.

Its just one more column in the Contract spreadsheet that shows the destination structure type.

Its not for sake of change, its for purposes of improvement to the UI so as to access the info we need.



Now, really, do we need more spread sheets?

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato