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How many more players must we lose to bullying

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Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#321 - 2017-03-30 20:11:10 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:


True, EvE is a sandbox, but imho, there is absolutely no PvE in this game. PvP means Player versus Player, it doesn't mean PvP = combat of anykind. PvP = competition against other players.
The moment you undock with your ITTY V your competing against other haulers.
The moment you play the 0.01 isk game you're competing against other players and so on and so forth.

OK, the random Joe PvE player follows his career as miner and the other random Joe follows his career as pirate/wardeccer/merc. They're both existential to the game. Whether you like it or not. Is really as simple as that.


The issue I see with wdec is that it is not symmetric (you can't peacedec or bribe concord to stop wdec) not consistient (you can decline duel but not wdec) and it is actually harming real PvP/ganking. If you let players (like me ;) ) to fly some safe-evening-L4 the other day I will willingly jump to low/null just to have some fight. Really this is win-win situation - I farm one day but then the other I am "providing content". Should you deny me farming-in-stars-over-beer you won't be able to kill me later (lose-lose?).

Thus farmers and ganers should unite and actively fight perma-wdeccers both in space and on forums Blink
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#322 - 2017-03-30 20:12:15 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
...now let the grownups continue this discussion..

Grown ups?

Grown ups don't get upset over video games.


but they do over spoiled childreen Twisted
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#323 - 2017-03-30 20:14:08 UTC
Alioth Ursa wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
...now let the grownups continue this discussion..

Grown ups?

Grown ups don't get upset over video games.


but they do over spoiled childreen Twisted

No. They don't even do that.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#324 - 2017-03-30 20:17:46 UTC
Joey Bags wrote:

My corp gets wardeced fairly regularly by the known permadecers (ahem, Marmite, cough), and the solution is simple. Don't feed them kills, /.../ I didn't quit, I've changed course and doing something else (pretty different too).


These are all good points. You can survive this and a lot of worse. Even lags Blink However - it would seem we have lost quite a few players due to (cought, cought) activities. Do we need mechanics specifficaly encouraging this?

o111
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#325 - 2017-03-30 20:20:00 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Now imagine if I took pleasure in running over baby ducks...

I don't come from a culture where shooting animals at all is seen as "sport", but can appreciate that other cultures view it as acceptable.

However using an analogy that you don't kill baby ducks just so you can kill them as adults is hardly comparable to playing a video game where nothing actually dies at all.

You're one of the biggest "go shoot things that can shoot back" whiners in the forum. Do you afford those ducks that same courtesy when you hunt them for real?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#326 - 2017-03-30 20:20:04 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Alioth Ursa wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
...now let the grownups continue this discussion..

Grown ups?

Grown ups don't get upset over video games.


but they do over spoiled childreen Twisted

No. They don't even do that.


I am still getting upset by misbehaving childreen I guess I need to wait another 30-something then Blink
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#327 - 2017-03-30 20:20:55 UTC
To follow to an earlier question about getting constantly wardecced: I used to get wardecced all the time. At this point I just evade them when they come or play an alt. With WHs, low-sec, and alts you could happily run around all day avoiding wardecs.

For lulz I tried to find the posts from my first wardec on here when I was a noob miner: http://eve-search.com/thread/969783-0/page/all#38

TLDR: We got war decced, I moved 20 jumps away and made even more money than I had before, laughing all the way.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Expendable Unit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#328 - 2017-03-30 20:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Expendable Unit
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
A New Beginning

So, you like playing Eve-Online ?

Is it because you like to shoot stuff, getting the kill is fun yes ?

Does that include shooting guys who don't want to PVP ?

Care Bears or industrialists who play the game for the mining and building stuff or trading ?

They have the right to play eve too don't they ?

Who said they had to be PVP'ers to Play Eve-Online ?

All games, just like real life have risks, the ganker can sneak up on you at any moment, social misfits or someone enjoying their freedom to act in a way they could never get away with in real life. That's the fun behind immersing one self in the virtual world so as to get away with the actions and activities we could never experience in real life.

Now think about this, If you where to go onto Face Book or Twitter, choose an individual or individuals and continuously harass them, troll the life out of them and generally make their lives a misery to the point they couldn't continue to use those social media sites....

Would you be allowed to get away with it ?

Wait, the ganker rarely bothers the same guys more than once, a couple of times in rare circumstances. Surely this doesn't relate to them.....that may be correct.

War deccers, now that's a different matter.

Many war deccers will declare war on corps who have no experience or no interest in pvp. Corps with new players with low skills and no experience. Forcing them to take the only option available to them and that is to stop playing till the war dec is finished.
What then ? A new war dec, same guys or different ones, maybe two together.

How does our player deal with this one....that's right.....he stops playing again till the war dec is over.

Are you now seeing a pattern.....how long is this guy going to put up with this....Alpha or Omega no difference.....if he can't enjoy his game he is going to quit. FACT !

And they do Quit, I know, I've been playing now for 12 years and the numbers of guys I've Known who have stopped playing for that reason alone is phenomenal.

Even Players that join with PVP as their career path are not going to be skilled enough for several months to be able to defend themselves in a war situation. No amount of enthusiasm is going to overcome the boredom of being station bound or being unable to play due to a wardec that could potentially last for weeks.

Me? doesn't bother me, I have 4 accounts, always one of them in a situation where there is no war, so not a problem for me to play.

Not quite the same for "Joe New Guy" though is it, or the guy who doesn't want to, or is unable to pay for multiple accounts.
So why is CCP sponsoring activities that are driving a large proportion of their customer base out of the game.

But the war deccer corps and alliances will complain if you try and change it. The bullies will always complain that they have the right to beat up on the new guys or the nerdy guys or those with different interests to their own, just for their own pleasure.

That is ok is it ? .... No ?

So what are you going to do about it.

Thats income that CCP will lose or isn't going to see, it's also a lot of potential lifelong friends and corp mates that we will never meet or see again, gone, Just so some bullies can have their fun.

OK let's look at this a bit more carefully, EVE-ONLINE is a very diverse game that needs to satisfy a great many people and in many ways it does. On the Empire War declaration it falls down.
The new solo players are protected, but as we all know, few players enjoy playing solo permanently. Eve's strength lies in it's team play. So the new player needs to join a Corp / Alliance where he can play and learn alongside other players. It's at this point he/they become vulnerable to wars and we could lose them. There is also the situation where a war dec runs continuously week after week....yes it does happen....my record is over 6 months.....crazy isn't it. Well you can imagine how many guys gave up and left the game during that period from my corp alone.

we need an invulnerability system where a corp or alliance can only be wardecced a set number of times in any time period. wardec maximum of one week, then grace period before any more wardecs can be declared unless mutually agreed between parties. Suggest one war dec per month then no decs at all until the new period. Plus get out of jail facility...fixed payment to Concord ( bullies don't get a dime) to declare the war dec void. This should make the bully boys think again before they go wasting their isk declaring war on easy targets. Shouldn't effect the pvp corps they can carry on fighting their wars to their hearts content. The Industrials, traders and PVE'ers can do their thing in relative safety as was originally intended within the bounds of High Sec Empire.

Over to you CCP

Time to start backing "all" your players instead of just the ones with the biggest voices.







When you get war decd, hit up a big alliance, fake chat logs where you pretend to be talking with the CEO that wardecd you, that you will contact a big alliance for help if he does not stop. Then write some stuff how the CEO laughs at that pathetic excuse of a alliance, that they are all useless noobs, too dumb to even know how to mine veldspar.... basically, cause/invent drama. Forward that to the CEO of that alliance, be smart, act innocent and helpless, do this with several alliances and one of them will be as dumb to believe it and war dec the corp that war deced you. I mean, do something.There are endless options, mine was just an example. But stop posting this crap on forums.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#329 - 2017-03-30 20:22:16 UTC
Alioth Ursa wrote:
However - it would seem we have lost quite a few players due to (cought, cought) activities. Do we need mechanics specifficaly encouraging this?

o111

How many? And how many play the game because of what it is and would leave if it was changed?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#330 - 2017-03-30 20:24:41 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
To follow to an earlier question about getting constantly wardecced: I used to get wardecced all the time. At this point I just evade them when they come or play an alt. With WHs, low-sec, and alts you could happily run around all day avoiding wardecs.

For lulz I tried to find the posts from my first wardec on here when I was a noob miner: http://eve-search.com/thread/969783-0/page/all#38

TLDR: We got war decced, I moved 20 jumps away and made even more money than I had before, laughing all the way.


Yes you can. With WHs, low-sec, and alts. Can hisec-carebear though?
Zander Moreau
Poor Fellow-Soldiers of James 315 and of Hek.
CODE.
#331 - 2017-03-30 20:26:05 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:


We are not talking about stopping ganking or wardecs, there is a definite place for it in Empire space. This is about wars that last for weeks at a time that are driving players new and old away from the game.


Couple of questions here:

1: Why isn't this whole thing in C&P?

2: What proof/evidence do you have to support that players are being driven away from EVE?

Its the fact that EVE is a full PVP game and the fact that wars can last weeks, or even months, at a time that drew me back (Yay! World War Bee!) If you want a 'war' that lasts only a weekend (a skirmish, really, IMO) then go play WoW. I miss the old days of WoW in which a battleground that would determine which faction got a huge buff would, literally, last a whole weekend. Then I learned about EVE (I think that the Great Northern War had just ended at that point) and I became enthralled with the game.

These are the types of PVP conflicts that makes headlines. Not just Geek Blogs or Forum headlines. These are headlines that made it into magazines and newspapers. If nothing else, I think that these massive wars draws more people in rather than drive them away.

So please, present your evidence that people are leaving the game because of this.

"We will bring you love... and by love, I mean lasers."

Pope Maximillian Singularity VI, First of His Name
Black Pedro
Mine.
#332 - 2017-03-30 20:30:31 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
I'm hoping to hear from some of the guys who have experienced of the excessive wardec phenomena, I would ask those of you with the aggressive and insulting tendencies to stand down now, you've had your say, now let the grownups continue this discussion.

We are not talking about stopping ganking or wardecs, there is a definite place for it in Empire space. This is about wars that last for weeks at a time that are driving players new and old away from the game.

Why isn't the intended mechanic - the NPC corp - sufficient to avoid these "bullies"?
CCP wrote:

It is our hope that the changes outlined here will serve to make wars a more engaging, fulfilling and fun experience for all. As always it is very difficult to create a system that supports legal PvP in a one-size-fits-all manner, as people have different playstyles, needs and expectations. With the changes currently in the pipeline we do realize that wars become a bit more hardcore and harder to avoid. But the line that is being drawn in the sand here is that if you’re in a player run corporation, then war is something you must be prepared to tackle. The ally system and the surrender with enforced peace do give options beside just duking it out (or docking for a week), but if you absolutely do not want to be war decced, then the only option right now is to be in a NPC corp. This is not an optimal solution and we might iterate here in the future, but this is the direction we’re taking right now.
You have a 100% effective and sanctioned out to wars you can use at any time. It is a little hard to get on board with your cries of bullying when not only do we all play this competitive game voluntarily so you can log out at any time, but you can even still continue your play session by just dropping from your corp and leaving the war behind. This solution is used effectively every day by the miners, mission runners and industrialists of highsec to dance around the war mechanics and carry on their activities unhindered. With such a powerful option available, I don't see how anyone can claim to be a victim of "bullying".

Is it ideal? Maybe not as CCP said. Should there be a social corp or equivalent for players who don't want the hassle of wars and are willing to forego the mechanical benefits of being in a player corp? I think so. But I see next to no chance of CCP mechanically limiting the number or duration of wars declared on you. That is open to all sorts of exploitation (like the dec shield problem we had before the last revamp) and goes against the sandbox nature of the game. CCP wanted more wars before the last wardec revamp, so I don't see why they would want to make changes so that less wars happen.

If you want a safer tier of corp for people who want to group up socially but not competitively, then I support you. But please don't cite your reasons for this with hyperbolic claims of "bullying" against the other players playing a PvP game, and stop waving the "new player" banner. Eve is about conflict and the strong preying on the weak, and always has been. Nothing has fundamentally changed in this area that is going to make the game suddenly die because there is too much conflict (or "bullying" in your turn or phrase) happening in New Eden.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#333 - 2017-03-30 20:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alioth Ursa
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

How many? And how many play the game because of what it is and would leave if it was changed?


Honestly - no idea Lol (I am anti-social type anyway). These are very good questions for CCP data miners ... What I can say is that I am still benefiting from fact that the corp has moved to null sec. Should we not have enough senior-guys to arrange this I would be probably overboard by now. Not sure if other care-bears will have same luck ...
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#334 - 2017-03-30 20:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Alioth Ursa wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
[quote=Alioth Ursa]
How many? And how many play the game because of what it is and would leave if it was changed?


Honestly - no idea Lol (I am anti-social type anyway). These are very good questions for CCP data miners ... What I can say is that I am still benefiting from fact that the corp has moved to null sec. Should we not have enough senior-guys to arrange this I would be probably overboard by now. Not sure if other care-bears will have same luck ...

Well CCP already offer a 100% guaranteed way to instantly escape from and/or totally avoid being wardecced.

So even if a player (new or old) isn't in a Corp that leaves highsec, all they need to do is drop from Corp. They don't need to cut ties, they can still fly with the same people, take part in public chat channels, receive evemails, etc. and play totally unaffected by a wardec whether it's one week or extended.

So I'd be asking, if my corp isn't supporting me and helping by advising how I can keep playing during a wardec, why am I in the Corp and paying taxes to it?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#335 - 2017-03-30 20:39:19 UTC
DRDNOUGHT wrote:
.................
Guys, is this how you would advise a friend or a member of your family, if they were being bullied at their work place or school. Leave and get another job or change school ?..................


Perfect!

What you advise is what works.....

Take the bully round the back of the bike sheds and beat the seven shades of s*** out of them - and don't get caught.

That's what works.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#336 - 2017-03-30 20:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alioth Ursa
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

So even if a player (new or old) isn't in a Corp that leaves highsec, all they need to do is drop from Corp. They don't need to cut ties, they can still fly with the same people, take part in public chat channels, receive evemails, etc. and play totally unaffected by a wardec whether it's one week or extended.

This would be bearable should we have some in-game tools for supporting this as well. The social (exploration?) type of guild mentioned earlier in this thread sounds convincing to me. It would probalby allow some progression and balancing risk/reward ratio.
NPC Corp --> Social Corp --> Regular Corp ...

Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
So I'd be asking, if my corp isn't supporting me and helping by advising how I can keep playing during a wardec, why am I in the Corp and paying taxes to it?

While in general true the (cought, cought) corps might be too much for many startup corps which otherwise would learn and grow over time (and move to low/null). Just my theory can't backup this with solid data Roll

o111
Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2017-03-30 20:57:16 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:

I think the post is about whether or not there should be a place for people who don't want to PvP. I am fine with there being a place for them because that brings more income into the game. But for some reason the thought of there being an even semi safe place within Eve really bothers some people. You can label anything a 'Play style' and defend it I guess. But the truth is that wardeccers are just griefers who prefer targets who can't fight back.


So long as that place does not allow the creation of isk, the changing of standings, the manufacture of goods, the mining of resrouces, trading, or anything else that could directly impact the economy... well I suppose that would be OK. A 'totally safe' space would be exploited so long as it had any value. Too many people are short-sighted and think only of a the individual player and not the far reaching impact of a gameplay change like this. Even one star system with a 'no PVP combat of any kind' setup would quickly become a trade hub and the epicenter of a gankfest just outside. It would also be packed with Upwell structures to the point of crashing the server node there.It would be a risk free manufacturing zone and research zone that would end up destabilizing the economy.


Read my posts. I am not for a "totally safe" location in Eve.
Azalyn Akiga
Doomheim
#338 - 2017-03-30 20:59:41 UTC
Reading all the comments are so fun. The mature level on people are so damn low I think ccp needs to rethink the game so we can get some more mature players and not a bunch of 30+ years old with minds of some damn 5 years olds.

Damn do you behave like this in real life or is it only on the net because you know they will not come and put a straight jacket on you. I remember like 3 years ago I asked some friends in eve why there mostly about 25-30K people online any given time they only said eve is not for every one. Then as a eve player that enjoys everything in eve may it be pvp or pve or just chilling with some scanning why not make the game fore more people so we get more new targets.

I rely don´t think pvp or mining or anything eve offers makes people leave the problem is not the game it is the immature ****** way most players treat each other in this game no one seams to be able to use the brain they have which I some times wonder if they even have and instead they must make some ****** remarks or try to be funny.

When people ask me about eve I try to make them not to play the game because I know they would leave after seeing how bloody immature eve players can be. Sure as every game there is some nice good mature players but far to few.

Maybe this is why they call it sandbox game every one behave like a 5 year old in a sandbox being my dad is better than your dad and what not.


Also the thing about eve only being about pvp "well CCP said it them self the game is all about pvp" then Why even bother with adding mining, pve, scanning and so on if sounds kinda stupid to me they could made eve more like fractured space or the new dreadnought game. But no they made it a sandbox game where you can play how ever you like so to you who say the game is only for pvp rethink what sandbox games mean and also who they **** are you telling people how to play the game.


Eve needs more players the only reason this game is still around are us people who got stuck here severals years ago and some time new players stay but common I wanna log on and see 300K people online not 30k that nothing I seen ****** MMOs from 2003 that has outdated graphics have 10 time more players than eve can dream on.


Also show people eve has a grate community and if your 30+ bloody behave your age your not 5 your a full grown adult.
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#339 - 2017-03-30 21:11:23 UTC
Azalyn Akiga wrote:
Reading all the comments are so fun. The mature level on people are so damn low I think ccp needs to rethink the game so we can get some more mature players and not a bunch of 30+ years old with minds of some damn 5 years olds.

Damn do you behave like this in real life or is it only on the net because you know they will not come and put a straight jacket on you. I remember like 3 years ago I asked some friends in eve why there mostly about 25-30K people online any given time they only said eve is not for every one. Then as a eve player that enjoys everything in eve may it be pvp or pve or just chilling with some scanning why not make the game fore more people so we get more new targets.

I rely don´t think pvp or mining or anything eve offers makes people leave the problem is not the game it is the immature ****** way most players treat each other in this game no one seams to be able to use the brain they have which I some times wonder if they even have and instead they must make some ****** remarks or try to be funny.

When people ask me about eve I try to make them not to play the game because I know they would leave after seeing how bloody immature eve players can be. Sure as every game there is some nice good mature players but far to few.

Maybe this is why they call it sandbox game every one behave like a 5 year old in a sandbox being my dad is better than your dad and what not.


Also the thing about eve only being about pvp "well CCP said it them self the game is all about pvp" then Why even bother with adding mining, pve, scanning and so on if sounds kinda stupid to me they could made eve more like fractured space or the new dreadnought game. But no they made it a sandbox game where you can play how ever you like so to you who say the game is only for pvp rethink what sandbox games mean and also who they **** are you telling people how to play the game.


Eve needs more players the only reason this game is still around are us people who got stuck here severals years ago and some time new players stay but common I wanna log on and see 300K people online not 30k that nothing I seen ****** MMOs from 2003 that has outdated graphics have 10 time more players than eve can dream on.


Also show people eve has a grate community and if your 30+ bloody behave your age your not 5 your a full grown adult.


But, my dad is better than your dad.

Oh, and your dad smells.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Alioth Ursa
Virtual Ducklings
#340 - 2017-03-30 21:15:29 UTC
Azalyn Akiga wrote:
/.../ not a bunch of 30+ years old with minds of some damn 5 years olds.
/.../
Damn do you behave like this in real life or is it only on the net because you know they will not come and put a straight jacket on you. /.../

/.../ the problem is not the game it is the immature ****** way most players treat each other in this game no one seams to be able to use the brain /.../

/.../

Also show people eve has a grate community and if your 30+ bloody behave your age your not 5 your a full grown adult.


Are you implying we are not treating the game seriously enough and thus we are immatureShocked?